MKJ murder, NOT mjk?

[Rubyretro]

I think that she was asleep when her killer got into her room, and she awoke as she was about to be attacked..she probably recognised her killer, and she was a big strong girl and fought back and cried out (got her arms slashed) and was quickly silenced.

[Fleetwood Mac]

This said, I do tend to the belief that she (and I have very little doubt--no, actually, I have no doubt--that it was MJ) was killed during the early hours, for the simple reason that dim light provides the only reasonable explanation for the burning of the clothes apparently left by MH.

Well if that's your only reason...Claire.....it isn't rock solid.

JTR had form for killing in an atmosphere of marginal light......

And, for completeness, although it reiterates previous discussions on Casebook, I think the 4am 'oh, murder,' cry was from MJ, but it was less of a cry of 'murder,' but more an exclamation of dismay at a late night/early hours caller. Once the murderer actually commenced business, I don't think she had a chance to call out at all.

Weren't her forearms slashed? That would suggest she saw it coming...

[claire]

Yup...which then gives far more credibility to the possibility (I'm quite good at this prevarication) that she knew her killer.

[joelhall]

I think the 4am 'oh, murder,' cry was from MJ, but it was less of a cry of 'murder,' but more an exclamation of dismay at a late night/early hours caller. Once the murderer actually commenced business, I don't think she had a chance to call out at all.

Ditto from me. As I've posted before this was a term used even when I was at primary school, and I'm only 28.

I think it was said when a certain visitor she didn't want to see turned up on her doorstep - who turned out to be her killer.

[claire]

Time of death was based on rigor mortis...and food digestion......these are not things that would be sufficient today....and the reason it evolved to something more than food digestion and rigor mortis is precisely because they were limited in their effectiveness due to the limited knowledge of the day.

Having said all of that....could Dr Bond have been 7 hours out? Surely not.

Different accounts of "murder" around 4.......it would be a major coincidence.....that someone close by exclaimed "murder" where a murder took place.....but it turns out it was nothing to do with the murder.....

For me....either the murder did take place around 2 and someone other than Kelly or the murderer entered the room......or the "murder" came from Kelly around 4.....

The simplest solution is that it was Kelly and she was killed around 4.......

Yes, I understand what it was based on; my argument is that the body would have chilled very rapidly, there being so little of it left, and Bond could not have known when Kelly had her last meal. It's worth remembering that the room was not entered until the afternoon, meaning the margin of error was greater (widening the further from time of death the examination takes place).

This said, I do tend to the belief that she (and I have very little doubt--no, actually, I have no doubt--that it was MJ) was killed during the early hours, for the simple reason that dim light provides the only reasonable explanation for the burning of the clothes apparently left by MH. And, for completeness, although it reiterates previous discussions on Casebook, I think the 4am 'oh, murder,' cry was from MJ, but it was less of a cry of 'murder,' but more an exclamation of dismay at a late night/early hours caller. Once the murderer actually commenced business, I don't think she had a chance to call out at all.

[c.d.]

This would seem especially likely since they had a suspect (Barnett) and therefore would need to be certain as to the time of death in order to verify his whereabouts at the time.

c.d.

[Rubyretro]

You would think with Mrs. Maxwell being so certain of her story that the police would have gone back to the doctors and asked them to recheck their work and conclusions.

c.d.

well, maybe the Police didn't believe that she knew Mary well enough to have recognised her..I think that she described the women she saw as 'short' 'stout ?) and Mary was tall.

[c.d.]

You would think with Mrs. Maxwell being so certain of her story that the police would have gone back to the doctors and asked them to recheck their work and conclusions.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi, Richard,

I find it all rather baffling, too...I also fail to see how time of death could have been adequately established given the state of the body, or lack thereof (although I admit that this suspicion is only due to a bit of armchair pathology!).

Time of death was based on rigor mortis...and food digestion......these are not things that would be sufficient today....and the reason it evolved to something more than food digestion and rigor mortis is precisely because they were limited in their effectiveness due to the limited knowledge of the day.

Having said all of that....could Dr Bond have been 7 hours out? Surely not.

Different accounts of "murder" around 4.......it would be a major coincidence.....that someone close by exclaimed "murder" where a murder took place.....but it turns out it was nothing to do with the murder.....

For me....either the murder did take place around 2 and someone other than Kelly or the murderer entered the room......or the "murder" came from Kelly around 4.....

The simplest solution is that it was Kelly and she was killed around 4.......

[claire]

Yeah, I've seen that; I just also (this is why I mention fuzzy memories!!) recall someone questioning whether Phillips was actually there when the room was accessed etc. And there was something else re. McCarthy's possible reasons for doing that--eg. not realising how easy it was to gain access, or (more probably) not wanting to incriminate himself by reaching in blithely and opening up. It mightn't look great. Still. I think I've wandered off topic!

[Robert]

Claire, Phillips said that McCarthy broke open the door.

[claire]

Oh, she may well have let it go on the lock that night. But it's not a certain. The supposition is that it's a spring lock, but you can stop it from locking automatically. If she was in and out that evening--or any other--then she may not have wanted the hassle of reaching in.
But, you're right--the list of people who would know about the reaching in business is quite long: to yours, we can add Barnett, Fleming (I would imagine), Maria Harvey, Julia, and any number of others. In my fuzzy memory, I seem to recall some explanation for the door being broken down: I think it had something to do with McCarthy not being around when they decided to enter the room.

[Rubyretro]

Assuming she generally bothered to lock the door when she wasn't in there.

wasn't the door on a spring lock ?

She wouldn't have needed to fumble through the window to let the door shut behind her.

She had a pile of laundry in the room, which she was either 'holding' or intended to sell (so it had some value). Miller's Court was a very poverty stricken place (in black on Dave's maps), she may have wanted to protect the laundry from being easily stolen.

Another thing is that she had already let other poor prostitutes sleep in her room, and it was a
dark rainy November night -maybe, if she was out soliciting herself, she wouldn't want to come home and find someone dossing in her bed..

[claire]

Assuming she generally bothered to lock the door when she wasn't in there.

[Rubyretro]

It would be interesting to know how many people knew about getting into the room by putting their hand through the window and opening it from the inside. The landlord didnīt seem to know about it and neither did anyone else, it seems, as they resorted to knocking the door down.

[/QUOTE]

If you think that MJK had really lost the key, then presumably she always opened the door by reaching in through the window.

Therefore Blotchy would have observed her doing so. A Man (had he existed !) would have seen her do so....and of course Hutch, whether he followed her home or accompanied her to the Court, would have observed her doing so.