MKJ murder, NOT mjk?

[Rubyretro]

You would think that the police would have made some effort to find the woman that Maxwell spoke to assuming that it was not Mary. That doesn't seem to be that hard a task.

c.d.

People have different personalities -some like to have the lime light and would
love to 'star'at an inquest...but others would want to keep well away from it all (espcially if they didn't understand the importance their testimony), and wouldn't come forward.

If this Mary was a relative stranger to Mrs Maxwell, she might not know that
she was called 'Mrs Maxwell' -she might not have been able to read the papers.

If she DID know that Mrs Maxwell claimed to have seen a murdered woman that morning -she might not associate it with herself..especially if she wasn't called Mary 'Kelly'.

If she was used having 'the horrors of drink' -it might not have been anything
special to remember... or she might have been ashamed.

If Mrs Maxwell said that she barely knew 'Mary' -it can't have been someone she passed often.

[c.d.]

You would think that the police would have made some effort to find the woman that Maxwell spoke to assuming that it was not Mary. That doesn't seem to be that hard a task.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hi Rubyretro,

All excellent points. I would expect that the police would have examined the ashes from the fire as you stated.

I still think that they would have gone back to the doctors to confirm their estimates of time of death.

c.d.

[Rubyretro]

Richard -I went back and read the story of Mrs Maxwell's sighting:

She admitted to hardly knowing Mary Kelly, and the woman she described was very different to descriptions of MJK. As a lot of women were tiny, and Mary was tall, she would have stood out by her height -yet Mrs Maxwell
described the woman she sighted as being short.

It is very true that I here cries of 'Murder !' sometimes and people shouting -and no one has yet been murdered in my area. But a cry of 'Murder !' by a woman in Millers Court at the right time, on the right night, would surely be too massive a coincidence to dismiss -surely the Police would try and identify who DID shout 'murder !'.
.
It's true that Doctor's could make a mistake when dealing with 'T.O.D.' -but
not that many hours.

Surely someone 'ill from drink' wouldn't light a fire, wait for it to become embers, cook and tuck into fish and potatos first thing in the morning ? (I think that they'd rather want to drink plenty of water) -and when they started vomiting, they wouldn't stop until they'd vomited it all, by reflex.

I think that anybody used to fires, could tell how long it had been burning, by the ashes at the bottom.

Lots of women are called Mary...maybe Mrs Maxwell was convinced that the woman that she spoke to was called Mary Kelly -but she wasn't at all., or she was but it wasn't the right one.

I don't think that the Police accepted her story -or else they would surely have taken her description of the Market Porter, as a very good witness view of Jack.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
When investigating any case of murder, you interview the last person who claims to have seen the victim.
In the case of Mary Kelly, that is Mrs Maxwell.
Unless you can eliminate them from the inquiry, you have a starting point to the case.
In Maxwells case, she could not be ruled out , that is why she was summoned to the inquest as a witness.
Her movements between 8am-9am of the morning of the 9th were checked and verified by the police, her comments on the clothing seen worn by the deseased were taken, and accepted by them, her statement to Abberline was accepted by him.
She had the weekend to realise any mistake, but there was none, she knew Mjks ex [Barnett], and saw him at the inquest, she would have had no doubt that the woman she saw on the morning of the 9th, was that of the resident of room 13.
Yet we still allow this vital sighting to be overlooked.
Fact.
If Mary was seen by Maxwell, then it is obvious that she lit the fire, as the killer would have had no need for light.
Fact.
If Mary lit the fire she would not have burned valuable assets ie, the shirts, bonnet that were in her room overnight.
Therefore if Kelly was alive at 845am, the only reason the killer would throw items on the fire, would be to confuse the T.O.D, which he managed to achieve.
We all know that T.O.D is not a science, and in 1888, was in most cases educated guesswork, witnesses hearing a scream, and clothes being burnt, would have indicated an earlier murder.
But the cry of 'Oh murder' was explained by Prater at the inquest, and described, and definitely makes sense, and I have also explained the burning of the clothes, as possibly occuring later.
Remains of fish and potatoes,... could have been eaten any time upon wakening by Kelly, we dont know either, the amount of vomit in the road, and we dont know the quantity of the remains found in Marys insides.
A lot can be explained if we accept the possibility of a murder in daylight.
Regards Richard.

[Supe]

Fleetwood,

Not suggesting you can't cook many things (including "stovies" as my Scots grandmothers called them) on a coal fire or in a fireplace grate. I'm just arguing against the notion that the fire must have been ablaze to have done something like melt the solder connecting spout to kettle. A blazing fire would provide a fair amount of light, but hot coals boiling away water in a kettle would eventually melt any soldered joints.

Don.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Victorian Christmas dinner

Many of our favourite Christmas foods are inherited from the Victorians.

Turkey, although boiled with onions and other veg rather than roasted, was the centre of the working class Christmas meal in towns and cities, although some families had boiled beef and country-dwellers usually had goose.
Accompaniments included forcemeat balls, bread, celery or oyster sauce, plenty of carrots, cabbage, and 'stoved' potatoes, cooked slowly by the fire in dripping or lard and water, a method still used, albeit with olive oil rather than dripping, in parts of the Med today.

http://www.saga.co.uk/health/healthyliving/healthyeating/healthy-eating-victorian-style.asp

Fair enough.....try again.....the potatoes were cooked using the fire......

I remember my Grandma frying chips on a coal fire in the early 1980s.

[Supe]

Fleetwood,

What would you need a quick....hot fire for......cooking something.....I'd go for the fire being used to fry the fish in Kelly's stomach.....

Once again, for those who don't grill, you don't cook with a flaming fire, you cook over hot coals. And she surely didn't fry fish in the fireplace--or otherwise prepare it there. Most in Kelly's situation bought prepared meals, either from street vendors, in pubs or at chandler's shops (see Mrs. Mahoney in George Yard buildings).

Don.

[c.d.]

Hi Richard,

In light of Maxwell's testimony, do you think it likely that the police asked Bond to reaffirm his findings? Wouldn't they have also spoken to Phillips as well?

I can't believe that the police were simply willing to accept two contradictory times for her death.

c.d.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Ruby! Or perhaps she woke as JTR approached her bed and pulled the sheet over her face in a futile attempt to protect herself (people do the most illogical things when frightened or panicked) If I remember rightly the doctor thought some of the wounds were inflicted through the sheet.

Curious..I think that's about right....

I think Kelly awoke as he sized her up.....waiting until she fell asleep....went for his knife.....and positioned her so he had a good angle for her neck.....and she awoke as he positioned her.....

[Fleetwood Mac]

In terms of the fire........

According to Abberline it was a quick.....and roaring fire.....

What would you need a quick....hot fire for......cooking something.....

I'd go for the fire being used to fry the fish in Kelly's stomach.....

I think JTR would have been happy to mutilate in the dark....his eyes would have adjusted to the atmosphere.....

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Lets set a scenerio where the killer was actually extremely cunning[ as I happen to believe], and he took advantage of a fire already lit in room 13, to fuel a alibi.[excuse the pun]Kelly lights a fire upon awakening around 730am , after Mrs Pickerts knock, she leaves her room around 8am, and returns shortly after with a pail of milk, she then, feeling rather sick, ventures out into Dorset street, and vomits, shortly after, is spoken to by Maxwell.
Somewhen between 815 -845 she encounters the man that Maxwell described at the inquest[ market porter], and makes arrangements for him to call on her, giving her enough time to get ready for his arrival.
She returns to her room, pokes the fire, with intentions to boil water in the kettle, undresses down to a chemise, and awaits the man .
He enters the room,and wastes no time, and catches her off guard, for she would never have suspected he could be the Ripper, after all it was daylight.
Noticing the fire was lit , he became aware that the very fact that the victim was undressed, and was on her bed, might suggest that the murder occured many hours previous.
So he added further clothing to the fire , to suggest to the police that the killer needed light for mutilation, because of the hour she was killed ie, during the night...as the killer would not have needed light at any other time, and as the clothing burnt were valuable assets, he would know that it would be believed that only the killer would have burnt them.
So what a alibi...
If Mjk had talked to a market porter,who happened to have a alibi for previous hours, and he used his cunning, to the affect of my scenerio, it appeared to have wOrked very well, as almost all of Casebook accept Bonds findings on T.O.D. In 2010.
Mary Kelly was killed around 9am, by someone she felt was safe .
Regards Richard.

[curious4]

Mary Kelly

Hello Ruby! Or perhaps she woke as JTR approached her bed and pulled the sheet over her face in a futile attempt to protect herself (people do the most illogical things when frightened or panicked) If I remember rightly the doctor thought some of the wounds were inflicted through the sheet.

[Rubyretro]

Well maybe you're both right :

she saw ithe murder coming; He lit a fire for light to help with the mutilations.

[claire]

No, of course it's not rock solid. But given that you got through telling me that Bond couldn't have got it 7 hours out, I would imagine that you would tend to the belief she was killed at night. And, I am aware that 3 of the previous canonicals had been killed in the dark. But I would strongly suggest that, given the chance, their murderer would have preferred a little light, and taken it where he could. The more comprehensive evisceration and mutilation of Kelly would argue for a little light, I suggest.

And all that depends on the insistence that she was C5.

Yeah, her forearms were slashed. Yes, she may have seen it coming. But, in your phrase, it isn't rock solid, now, is it?

I'm unclear as to your argument, or are you simply trying to point out how misguided I am?