MKJ murder, NOT mjk?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi, Richard,

I find it all rather baffling, too...I also fail to see how time of death could have been adequately established given the state of the body, or lack thereof (although I admit that this suspicion is only due to a bit of armchair pathology!).

Time of death was based on rigor mortis...and food digestion......these are not things that would be sufficient today....and the reason it evolved to something more than food digestion and rigor mortis is precisely because they were limited in their effectiveness due to the limited knowledge of the day.

Having said all of that....could Dr Bond have been 7 hours out? Surely not.

Different accounts of "murder" around 4.......it would be a major coincidence.....that someone close by exclaimed "murder" where a murder took place.....but it turns out it was nothing to do with the murder.....

For me....either the murder did take place around 2 and someone other than Kelly or the murderer entered the room......or the "murder" came from Kelly around 4.....

The simplest solution is that it was Kelly and she was killed around 4.......

[c.d.]

You would think with Mrs. Maxwell being so certain of her story that the police would have gone back to the doctors and asked them to recheck their work and conclusions.

c.d.

[Rubyretro]

You would think with Mrs. Maxwell being so certain of her story that the police would have gone back to the doctors and asked them to recheck their work and conclusions.

c.d.

well, maybe the Police didn't believe that she knew Mary well enough to have recognised her..I think that she described the women she saw as 'short' 'stout ?) and Mary was tall.

[c.d.]

This would seem especially likely since they had a suspect (Barnett) and therefore would need to be certain as to the time of death in order to verify his whereabouts at the time.

c.d.

[claire]

Time of death was based on rigor mortis...and food digestion......these are not things that would be sufficient today....and the reason it evolved to something more than food digestion and rigor mortis is precisely because they were limited in their effectiveness due to the limited knowledge of the day.

Having said all of that....could Dr Bond have been 7 hours out? Surely not.

Different accounts of "murder" around 4.......it would be a major coincidence.....that someone close by exclaimed "murder" where a murder took place.....but it turns out it was nothing to do with the murder.....

For me....either the murder did take place around 2 and someone other than Kelly or the murderer entered the room......or the "murder" came from Kelly around 4.....

The simplest solution is that it was Kelly and she was killed around 4.......

Yes, I understand what it was based on; my argument is that the body would have chilled very rapidly, there being so little of it left, and Bond could not have known when Kelly had her last meal. It's worth remembering that the room was not entered until the afternoon, meaning the margin of error was greater (widening the further from time of death the examination takes place).

This said, I do tend to the belief that she (and I have very little doubt--no, actually, I have no doubt--that it was MJ) was killed during the early hours, for the simple reason that dim light provides the only reasonable explanation for the burning of the clothes apparently left by MH. And, for completeness, although it reiterates previous discussions on Casebook, I think the 4am 'oh, murder,' cry was from MJ, but it was less of a cry of 'murder,' but more an exclamation of dismay at a late night/early hours caller. Once the murderer actually commenced business, I don't think she had a chance to call out at all.

[joelhall]

I think the 4am 'oh, murder,' cry was from MJ, but it was less of a cry of 'murder,' but more an exclamation of dismay at a late night/early hours caller. Once the murderer actually commenced business, I don't think she had a chance to call out at all.

Ditto from me. As I've posted before this was a term used even when I was at primary school, and I'm only 28.

I think it was said when a certain visitor she didn't want to see turned up on her doorstep - who turned out to be her killer.

[claire]

Yup...which then gives far more credibility to the possibility (I'm quite good at this prevarication) that she knew her killer.

[Fleetwood Mac]

This said, I do tend to the belief that she (and I have very little doubt--no, actually, I have no doubt--that it was MJ) was killed during the early hours, for the simple reason that dim light provides the only reasonable explanation for the burning of the clothes apparently left by MH.

Well if that's your only reason...Claire.....it isn't rock solid.

JTR had form for killing in an atmosphere of marginal light......

And, for completeness, although it reiterates previous discussions on Casebook, I think the 4am 'oh, murder,' cry was from MJ, but it was less of a cry of 'murder,' but more an exclamation of dismay at a late night/early hours caller. Once the murderer actually commenced business, I don't think she had a chance to call out at all.

Weren't her forearms slashed? That would suggest she saw it coming...

[Rubyretro]

I think that she was asleep when her killer got into her room, and she awoke as she was about to be attacked..she probably recognised her killer, and she was a big strong girl and fought back and cried out (got her arms slashed) and was quickly silenced.

[claire]

No, of course it's not rock solid. But given that you got through telling me that Bond couldn't have got it 7 hours out, I would imagine that you would tend to the belief she was killed at night. And, I am aware that 3 of the previous canonicals had been killed in the dark. But I would strongly suggest that, given the chance, their murderer would have preferred a little light, and taken it where he could. The more comprehensive evisceration and mutilation of Kelly would argue for a little light, I suggest.

And all that depends on the insistence that she was C5.

Yeah, her forearms were slashed. Yes, she may have seen it coming. But, in your phrase, it isn't rock solid, now, is it?

I'm unclear as to your argument, or are you simply trying to point out how misguided I am?

[Rubyretro]

Well maybe you're both right :

she saw ithe murder coming; He lit a fire for light to help with the mutilations.

[curious4]

Mary Kelly

Hello Ruby! Or perhaps she woke as JTR approached her bed and pulled the sheet over her face in a futile attempt to protect herself (people do the most illogical things when frightened or panicked) If I remember rightly the doctor thought some of the wounds were inflicted through the sheet.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Lets set a scenerio where the killer was actually extremely cunning[ as I happen to believe], and he took advantage of a fire already lit in room 13, to fuel a alibi.[excuse the pun]Kelly lights a fire upon awakening around 730am , after Mrs Pickerts knock, she leaves her room around 8am, and returns shortly after with a pail of milk, she then, feeling rather sick, ventures out into Dorset street, and vomits, shortly after, is spoken to by Maxwell.
Somewhen between 815 -845 she encounters the man that Maxwell described at the inquest[ market porter], and makes arrangements for him to call on her, giving her enough time to get ready for his arrival.
She returns to her room, pokes the fire, with intentions to boil water in the kettle, undresses down to a chemise, and awaits the man .
He enters the room,and wastes no time, and catches her off guard, for she would never have suspected he could be the Ripper, after all it was daylight.
Noticing the fire was lit , he became aware that the very fact that the victim was undressed, and was on her bed, might suggest that the murder occured many hours previous.
So he added further clothing to the fire , to suggest to the police that the killer needed light for mutilation, because of the hour she was killed ie, during the night...as the killer would not have needed light at any other time, and as the clothing burnt were valuable assets, he would know that it would be believed that only the killer would have burnt them.
So what a alibi...
If Mjk had talked to a market porter,who happened to have a alibi for previous hours, and he used his cunning, to the affect of my scenerio, it appeared to have wOrked very well, as almost all of Casebook accept Bonds findings on T.O.D. In 2010.
Mary Kelly was killed around 9am, by someone she felt was safe .
Regards Richard.

[Fleetwood Mac]

In terms of the fire........

According to Abberline it was a quick.....and roaring fire.....

What would you need a quick....hot fire for......cooking something.....

I'd go for the fire being used to fry the fish in Kelly's stomach.....

I think JTR would have been happy to mutilate in the dark....his eyes would have adjusted to the atmosphere.....

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Ruby! Or perhaps she woke as JTR approached her bed and pulled the sheet over her face in a futile attempt to protect herself (people do the most illogical things when frightened or panicked) If I remember rightly the doctor thought some of the wounds were inflicted through the sheet.

Curious..I think that's about right....

I think Kelly awoke as he sized her up.....waiting until she fell asleep....went for his knife.....and positioned her so he had a good angle for her neck.....and she awoke as he positioned her.....