MKJ murder, NOT mjk?

[Versa]

Hello Versa, dixon, all,

maybe these casebook dissertations could cast some light on your question:

Did Mary kelly survive?, by Des McKenna

Is Truth Stranger than Fiction? Some remarks on "Did Mary Kelly survive?", by Dave Yost.

Personally I think the theory holds no water. The testimonies of the witnesses who allegedly saw Mary on the morning of November 9th (Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis) were the only source for this rumour but neither of them are trustworthy in my opinion.

Regards,

Boris

thanks for the links i'll have a look at them this evening.

[Versa]

Hi Versa
we have a few problems with the scenario that it was not MJK

(1) was the other 'prostitute' already in the room when MJK was seen going home with a 'client'?
(2)If not when did she take up 'residence' at number 13 that morning?
(3) Why did MJK not come forward to say "hey i'm not dead"?

There are many on here more knowledgeable than me,but there are a few ??? to be getting on with.

Dixon9
still learning

Hi,

TBH its not anything that bothers me or makes any difference really i was just interested in wether there was any doubt.

In my opinion it probably was MJK.

Why wouldnt she come forward? Well it looked like her life had taken a serious turn for the worse in the last few months/years and things were getting worse, if she had debtors (which i expect she did) being 'dead' might of been an oportunity for her to start again in some way?

As far as the identification goes its not unheard of for people to mis-identify loved ones and the extreme nature of the crime would make a mistake easy to make.

[Phil H]

I remain open-minded on this issue.

On the whole I think it probably was MJK who died (though almost certainly not by the hand of the Whitechapel murderer).

BUT

We still don't know accurately the time she was killed, so I remain open to the idea that it could have been her seen by Mrs M, and that she was killed later. It's a low probability IMHO but possible given present evidence.

Mrs M could well have been mistaken, but stubborn, in which case we are back to MJK having been killed c 3.00am-ish (give or take).

Nevertheless, we know almost nothing reliable about Mary - we do not know what she looked like, and no one has been able to pin down her antecedents or past history (marriage, husband, France, posh-whorehouses and all). on that basis, and given my interest in potential Fenian connections, I am not prepared to rule out that someone else died in MJK's place (by accident or design). Could it have been the "Julia" referred to in evidence at the time? In that case, the "Oh, Murder!" heard by other residents of Miller's Ct, could have been MJK returning to find a dismembered body in her bed.

Far-fetched - probably, but I'll not rule it out yet.

Then again, it was probably MJK who died.

Bernard Levin once said (in essence): "My favourite composer is Mozart - but then there's Beethoven. It's Beethoven - but then there's Mozart"!! he couldn't make up his mind and neither can I.

Phil

[Lord-z]

I think there is evidence that Mrs. Maxwell might have been talking about a different Mary Kelly, or at least confused the days.

I think that speculation that she survived is just wishful thinking by a certain kind of ripperologist. The Ripperologists version of fan-fiction, if you will. "Oh, I don't want her to die. I am gonna fix it so she survives and lives a long and happy life far away from this life. I am gonna save her!". But it is sort of missing the point, as that would still leave a poor mutilated girl in a small apartment in Whitechapel, as if she was any less of a murdered human being if she doesn't have a name.


Don't get me wrong, the idea fascinates me, if nothing else because then we get a whole other mystery with its own set of questions.

[harry]

One is entitled to consider the possibilities,and it can be argued as to whether Barnett could be a hundred per cent certain.Beside that there is the testimony of Hutchinson and Cox to consider,both in my opinion open to question,which could leave about 8pm the previous evening as the last sighting of Kelly.
On the basis of probability I would say it was Kelly.

[bolo]

Hello Versa, dixon, all,

maybe these casebook dissertations could cast some light on your question:

Did Mary kelly survive?, by Des McKenna

Is Truth Stranger than Fiction? Some remarks on "Did Mary Kelly survive?", by Dave Yost.

Personally I think the theory holds no water. The testimonies of the witnesses who allegedly saw Mary on the morning of November 9th (Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis) were the only source for this rumour but neither of them are trustworthy in my opinion.

Regards,

Boris

[kensei]

Joseph Barnett identified the body as being Mary Jane. When asked how he knew it was her he said either "By ear and eyes" or "By hair and eyes" (opinions differ), but let's think practically. He had lived with her and been her lover for a significant amount of time. He knew her body and every mark on it. Even with the mutilation, I find it very unlikely that he could have been mistaken about someone he knew so well.

[dixon9]

Hi Versa
we have a few problems with the scenario that it was not MJK

(1) was the other 'prostitute' already in the room when MJK was seen going home with a 'client'?
(2)If not when did she take up 'residence' at number 13 that morning?
(3) Why did MJK not come forward to say "hey i'm not dead"?

There are many on here more knowledgeable than me,but there are a few ??? to be getting on with.

Dixon9
still learning

[Versa]

hi,
given that at least two witnesses claimed to have conversed with MJK from 8am onwards and that there were reports of people hearing someone scream 'murder' how likely is it that MJK let another prostitute use her room? MJK could of been the one to scream 'murder' upon finding the scene, she also may of recognised an oportunity to vanish? While i doubt that the identity of the victim has much bearing on the case I do wonder if it was indeed MJK at all. I'd be very surprised if anyone could seriously identify the body after such extreme mutilations.