How long was the killer in the room?

[Robert]

Re the door, I agree, I think he just walked in. He probably tried the handle, and it opened. I'm not suggesting he walked in wielding his knife. He was probably just trying to get out of the rain. I think the front door in Dorset St had been recently locked - before that, it was used as a shelter. He may have been looking for a back way in. If a man had been in there, he only had to say "oops, sorry." But he must have awoken Kelly who started with the "Oh murder" stuff, so he silenced her. How else explain such a bungled attack? Her throat was cut from the wrong side.

[KatBradshaw]

David, Good point

Kensei - I agree, and tbh with it being so dark etc he may not have expected Hutch to have seen that much anyway. How could he have known that Hutch was some sort of human camera......assuming once again that Hutch is telling the truth.

[Ben]

Are you really going to call it off because you happen to pass by some random guy in the street who crouches down and gives you a serious and intense look in the face?

Well, I'd be even more prudent and minimise the chances of this encounter happening at all. I'd acheive this by not dressing in an extremely conspicuous and ostentatious fashion in the worst possible district at the worst possible time, especially if the flashy attire also happened to tally bizarrely well with the popular press-generated image of the killer. If I'm Jack the Ripper, I haven't killed for five weeks, and I'm "pretty keyed up", I'm going to do everything in my power to prevent my victim-procuring efforts being hampened by interest from undesirable quarters, i.e. potential muggers, plain clothes coppers and vigilantes.

Best regards,
Ben

[Robert]

Hi Kensei

If we assume for a moment that you're right and that he was desperate :

Are you going to wait while Kelly takes off her dress, however many petticoats she was wearing, and all the other clobber, and then let her lie down, and then try to strangle her while she was lying down and ending up having to cut her throat from the wrong side while she's still conscious? I think she'd have been dead about 30 seconds after walking in the door with him.

[kensei]

Robert:
Sorry if this sounds argumentative, but cut from the wrong side? The wrong side for what? Dead is dead. I don't consider Miller's Court to be a "bungled attack," but a very successful one. And it's been pointed out before that "Oh, Murder!" is a very unlikely thing for someone about to be murdered to cry out. It's more likely the cry of someone who saw something afterwards.

[Ben]

I agree, and tbh with it being so dark etc he may not have expected Hutch to have seen that much anyway. How could he have known that Hutch was some sort of human camera

Hi Kat - If Astrakhan the Ripper (puh-leaase!) didn't expect Hutchinson to see much, there was even less incentive to attire himself so opulently. It wasn't as if the average Spitalfields prostitute could have afforded to be choosey over their type of client, and they were more likely to be deterred by an obviously out-of-place Jewish-looking outsider. Still, Astrakhan still had the option of not walking straight past an obviously interested party standing under a gas lamp.

Regards,
Ben

[Robert]

Hi Kensei

There seem to have been defensive wounds. There were cuts in the sheet as though he'd stabbed her face through it. The pool of blood under the corner of the bed suggests she'd been shrinking away from him. There was the blood up the walls, and the cry. "Oh murder" wasn't an uncommon cry in such circs - there are several instances in the "Times" of people being murdered crying thus. There was even "I am murdered."

He always commenced his cut on the victims' left side of the throat. He was probably like me when playing table tennis - I'd rather run round my forehand than try to play a backhand.

[kensei]

Hi Kensei

If we assume for a moment that you're right and that he was desperate :

Are you going to wait while Kelly takes off her dress, however many petticoats she was wearing, and all the other clobber, and then let her lie down, and then try to strangle her while she was lying down and ending up having to cut her throat from the wrong side while she's still conscious? I think she'd have been dead about 30 seconds after walking in the door with him.

I guess we are visiting another version of the "layers of clothing" subject here. Mary Jane dressed for her job. Many East End prostitutes who were homeless walked around wearing all the clothes they owned, but she had a home. She would have worn as much as she needed to keep relatively warm and as little as she needed to service her clients. And before Astrakan Man, she did have at least one other client- Blotchy Face.

[DVV]

I think the fire has been lit when Mary and the Ripper were together in the room. Then she undressed, went to bed, and was murdered.

Amitiés,
David

[KatBradshaw]

It may be that the fire was lit on low all the time, that is the only type of heating the room would have had after all.
I have to say I diagree with the murder cry being by someone who saw something. Why would they not come forward?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Kat!

What if the killer told the outsider after the deed;

"If you teel anyone, I will...!"

All the best
Jukka

[KatBradshaw]

If he was seen then is your contention that he then fled?
I just wonder if anyone who saw what happened would have stuck around long enough for the killer to speak to them. If it was me, I'd scream the 'Oh Murder' and then leg it!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Kat!

That was just a thought!

Some people freeze in the state of shock, you know?!

Anyhow, the cry "Murder, oh, murder!" was most probably cried out by MJK!

But it's worth studying the other options as well!

All the best
Jukka

[Sam Flynn]

I have to say I diagree with the murder cry being by someone who saw something. Why would they not come forward?

Agreed 100% - and, given the state on Kelly, there'd have been more than just a solitary scream. Pandemonium would have broken out.

[Sam Flynn]

Man leaving the court at quarter-to-six

A few good folks have mentioned this, but please note that Mrs Cox mentions more than one man going out, and her specific reference to one such departure at 05:45 was only an example... perhaps it was only on that occasion she'd noticed the time.

"I heard men going in and out, several going in and out. I heard someone go out at a quarter to six. I don't know which house he went out of [as] I heard no door shut. He did not pass my window." (Cox's inquest testimony, my emphasis.)

Quite how she could be certain they were "men", I can't imagine - perhaps it was the sound of clumpy porters', labourers' or dockers' boots?

On which point, another good reason for the killer clearing out of Room 13 in reasonably good time would be that people would be getting ready and/or setting out for work from close to 5 o'clock onwards. It might have been Lord Mayor's Day, but life still had to go on.