How long was the killer in the room?

[Robert]

Gareth, I agree that he would have struck quickly - the scenarios where he's taken home as a client and watches Kelly perform a striptease or whatever, strike me as plain silly. But I don't think he'd have been in any hurry to leave. He'd have known that he wasn't going to get another chance like that in a long, long while.

Also, let's face it, it was cold and raining outside. He might as well have stayed and fiddled around some more. Unlike Captain Mainwaring, he didn't have a set of bagpipes with him.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Robert

The chance of another man coming by Kelly`s room must have crossed the killers mind. I can`t see him hanging around.

[DVV]

Why would it have been too risky?? He had no reason to think anyone was going to come in.

Simple, Kate,

the longer you wait on a crime scene, the more you take risk.

Amitiés,
David

[mariag]

Look how fast he was with Eddowes. Quick was his thing.

And I agree that morbid curiosity was the prime motivator.

[Robert]

Perhaps a clue can be gained from the fire. Either Jack lit the fire or Kelly did. If we believe Jack lit the fire, then that suggests that he wanted to see his work, to savour it. That doesn't sound like a man in a hurry, terrified lest the handle of the door turn and someone catch him literally red-handed.

[DVV]

I agree, half an hour at least, and probably more.

Amitiés,
David

[protohistorian]

I do not have my ab psych book here in this town, but long enough to move from emotion to mood. Emotions have as part of their definition a limited duration (minutes), and then pass into the classification of the longer lasting state of mood. One thing that can be said with Kelly, that cannot be said for any of the other c5, is that the killers psychological state was, by modern standards, a mood, not an emotion. There are subtle differences between the two that leads one to believe there was some reason other than mere opportunity at work. When I return to Uni I will flesh out the details I have understood them should anyone wish me to. Respectfully Dave

[Pontius2000]

I agree with Sam Flynn. 20-30 minutes. no more.

many assume that because he was in an enclosed room, that he took the time to relax and savor the moment. in many ways, being in an enclosed room is MORE dangerous than being out on the street. when he was killing on the street, he could hear a cop coming from 3 blocks away. and if interrupted, he could run in any direction. but in the room, there was one way in and one way out. if anyone came to the door while he was there, he was caught, no way out.

If I were the killer, the only way I'd have been more comfortable in that room rather than on the street is if I knew the victim and knew absolutely that no one was going to come knocking on her door.

he got in, killed, hacked, and was gone. the more I think about the Ripper, the more I think he was not about wallowing in the moment or making a display for whoever found the bodies. he just wanted to do what he was there to do and would "savor the moment" later.

[Barnaby]

I'll guestimate about 2 hours. This takes into account Pratter hearing the "Oh Murder!" cry at 4 am and Cox hearing someone leave at 5:45.

[The Good Michael]

I think this all depends upon who the killer was and why he/she was butchering Kelly. That said, it could have been 15 minutes to 4 or 5 hours that the killer was in the room. Bring in some Fenian connections (please don't!) and who knows?

Mike

[KatBradshaw]

I'll guestimate about 2 hours. This takes into account Pratter hearing the "Oh Murder!" cry at 4 am and Cox hearing someone leave at 5:45.

And this is something we do need to think about. What does the evidence we have tell us??
By Hutch's account Kelly goes in to her room with Mr Astrakan at about 2.15 and then he waits till 3.00 and leaves. If Mr Astrakan saw Hutch, which I think we can asume from Hutch's testimony that he did he knows Hutch is out there. Does he want to kill knowing someone is there. Of course, this is relying on Hutch's story......
At about the same time as Hutch leaves Mrs Cox returns and see no light on in Kelly's room. If the killer is in there what is he doing in the dark??
This of course raises the possibility that Kelly herself left to look for another client.
at 4.00 Diddles hears the cry of 'Murder' coming from somewhere in the court.
We then have the possibility of someone leaving the court at 5.45.
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
My guestimate from this evidence is that Kelly leaves her room in search of another client between 3 and 4. Heads back in, is killed at 4.00 and the Ripper spends 1hr 45 mins with her. 30 mins of actual cutting permiated with time to look etc.

This is not my prefered theory but what use of that timeline suggests.

[harry]

If there was such a person as AK,why would he presume that Hutchinson would wait.The possibility of someone hearing an unusual sound or cry,would ,I presume,be more liable to be living in the adjoining tenements,and therefor pose a greater danger.One factor that might have influenced the killer's thinking,and hence his length of stay,was where he was going on leaving.

[KatBradshaw]

I don't think he would have presumed Hutch would wait. But he may have seen him.

[kensei]

Argh, I hate it when I find these interesting threads and they are already twenty-plus posts into the discussion. Anyway, Sam Flynn's breakdown of the minimum number of seconds required to perform all the mutilations strikes me as how it would be done in some bizarre contest in which Kelly's murder was already well known and people were trying to race each other to duplicate it in the absolute fastest time possible. No matter how much danger the Ripper thought there might be, there are obvious sexual motivations being served in this crime that would have to be savored for at least some significant time. Though it always makes me feel like I need a shower after discussing this, cutting off a woman's breasts and placing them in two deliberate spots is NOT something he would have rushed through in the fewest seconds it took to do it. The one placed under her head in particular makes me shudder as I imagine him holding it in his hand and thinking what a nice pillow it might make. God, now I REALLY need that shower! (And that's without even covering all the other damage.)

I have tended to envision the Ripper, with the fire burning for light and at least a little warmth, stripping down himself at least to being shirtless, both for sexual gratification and to avoid bloodstains, after killing Kelly but before beginning the mutilations. Sexual release would have occurred without actual sexual contact with the body, as in all the other murders. If anyone came through the door unexpectedly, it would not be police. Someone else would have to discover the scene first in order for them to be summoned, and he had his knife or knives. He could pounce on any interloper and dispatch them or fight his way out if he had to. The opportunity he was presented with here was simply worth the risk to him. I think he was the Astrakan Man, and if he went into the room with Kelly at around 2:15 and IF the cry of "Murder" heard by Mrs. Prater at 4:00 had something to do with his leaving (and I know that's a big if), then we are looking at one hour and forty-five minutes.

[KatBradshaw]

I think he was the Astrakan Man, and if he went into the room with Kelly at around 2:15 and IF the cry of "Murder" heard by Mrs. Prater at 4:00 had something to do with his leaving (and I know that's a big if), then we are looking at one hour and forty-five minutes.

But surely that would have Kelly Crying murder when she was already dead and destroyed.
The reference to someone leaving is at 5.45 not 4.00.