Real Name

[Phil Carter]

Was the C5 victim in Miller's Court real name Mary Kelly?

We have many names for "Black Mary"... Lizzie Fisher, Mary Jane Lawrence, Jane Lawrence, Mary Ann Kelly, Mary Jane Kelly, Marie Jeanette Kelly and plain Mary Kelly.

(Strange that Catharine Eddowes had a married sister called Elizabeth Fisher isn't it? And that Kate Eddowes also used Mary Ann Kelly?)

Anyway, I thought I'd put it to a vote.

best wishes

Phil

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Phil!

There are loads of us, who have been searching Mary Jane Kelly from the LVP records.

But since none of us has found that needle in a haystack (that is; none of us has definitely sat on it and said "ouuch!" ), she obviously figured out the following pattern right after arriving to London:

1. Mary is the most common Irish girl's first name.

2. Kelly is the second most common Irish last name.

3. So; none in my family knows about my real whereabouts!

All the best
Jukka

[KatBradshaw]

I think her name probably was Mary Jane Kelly. The problem is that I think her back story is unrealiable and so the information we would need to really find her on the Census etc is not there.

[Sam Flynn]

As I earlier pointed out on another thread, the reference to "Lizzie Fisher" as an alias of Kelly's seems only to have been carried by the American/Canadian press, mainly in the immediate aftermath of the Miller's Court murder. It seems likely that an agency serving the transatlantic press made an error of conflation, spuriously bringing "Elizabeth Fisher" (Eddowes' married sister) into Mary Kelly's story, the error being replicated - almost verbatim in some cases - by the following papers:

Macleod Gazette
Kellogg Enterprise
Bismarck Tribune
Atchison Daily Globe
Trenton Times
Manitoba Free Press
Edwardsville Intelligencer
New York Tribune
Boston Daily Globe
Williamsport Sunday Grit
New York Herald
Montreal Gazette
Ottowa Citizen
Stevens Point Journal

I note the "Kellogg Enterprise" carried the story - perhaps as part of an ongoing cerealisation

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

I have already registered the fact that I believe MJK to be a false name. It isn't Earth shattering news if she is, as the actually murder itself, the place, the day..everything about MJK is at odds with the rest of the case. (IMHO)

Kat has it in one. That background IS unreliable. Nothing, from start to finish of the known statements, tallies up. (with a few small exceptions..see below..) That is probably why Dear old Joe Barnett became a modern day suspect of her murder in the first place. Because much of what we take as her background comes from him and doesn't fit.

The most intriguing part, for me, is the subject of the letters from her mother. Joe told us about them, and a religious christian gentleman spoke of her reading them to him, and discussing them. So THIS part of Joe's story, is almost certainly true, whatever the rest is.

Letters. Then we can presume, almost safely, then this MJK could READ. That itself, in Whitechapel, among the grown up population, is interesting. I do NOT put more weight on it than that.

Hyva Jukka!.. (haven't attacked the double dotted "a" on my keyboard, sorry..)

That little 3 line sentence tells me something.
She didnt WANT to be found. Or she would have made herself known.
The last we know of anyone apart from those near in Whitechapel was when she lived elsewhere in London, when her mother sent letters to that addie. Then Dad tried to find her, and she shied away from meeting him.

Nope. This lady WANTED to remain anonymous. And that itself, raises my eyebrows.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Gareth,

I added the Lizzie name on purpose, and the link to Cath's name, for we do have people on the boards brought up with the US/Transatlantic view.

More importantly...hahahaha...you have been at the port again I see... the one liners are getting worse...

Suggestion?... Cure?

Have another Port. (and one for me)

best wishes

Phil

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Phil!

Otherwise a nice post, but...:

Joe didn't know about the letter. It was the landlord, Joe McCarthy, that told her to have received a letter from Ireland. So, the letter itself did exist. But probably MJK burnt it in the fireplace, not wanting anyone to know the content.

I even doubt, that she lied about the sender!

The lifestory MJK told Joe, could have some bits of her real life. Though, in that case she obviously told, what she wanted to tell. Mixing the timeline of details etc. (Ahhh, if you want to know, what I mean; you can search my short-story "The confession-maker" from the Creative Writing and Expression -section! )

All the best
Jukka

[KatBradshaw]

The best lies have a grounding in truth. I believe her name was Mary Jane Kelly.
I believe she was originally from Ireland.
I believe she lived for some time in Wales.
I believe she had a brother in the Army.
I believe her mother wrote to her from Ireland.
I believe she spent some time working in a brothel.

I also believe she was a fantasist who probably dreamed of more and better and so added embellishments such as the France story and maybe even the tragically killed husband. The reason for these lies could be many, to gain sympathy, to explain away things people asked her or just, and I think most likely, the fantasies of a woman for whom life was a bit pants!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Kat!

Well, I got the idea for the short story I talked about in my earlier post from the following saying:

"The best lie is almost true!"

I don't remember, who said it.

A friend of mine thinks, it was Joseph Göbbels!

All the best
Jukka

[KatBradshaw]

Thats spooky coz Mike Covell and I have being having a discussion about this very quote on Facebook!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Kat!

Oh, sorry!

But remember; my friend just thinks, that it was him!

Well, when you and Mike find the origin of the saying, please, tell about it on this thread!

All the best
Jukka

[KatBradshaw]

Oh, sorry!

What for hon?

But remember; my friend just thinks, that it was him!

Well, when you and Mike find the origin of the saying, please, tell about it on this thread!

We have found a few people who have said similar and TBH is is probably something people have said for years! Lenin said something similar.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Kat,

My oh my! have just realised I am being looked at in Facebook... and there I dont even mention JTR!!

Wierd. Two diferent worlds.

I don't believe MJK was her real name.
I do believe that "MJK" was Irish
I'd love to believe she married a Mr Lawrence, then we would really know something.
Whoever the victim was in No.13, I hope we can one day avenge her murder.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Ummm... it has just hit me...

I DO presume that all possibilities re O'Kelly have been looked into?

Or?

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Whoever the victim was in No.13, I hope we can one day avenge her murder.

Phil

How that, Phil ?

Looking for Jack's grandsons, like God in the Old Testament ?

Amitiés,
David