Real Name

[Sox]

Actually, Sox, we only have some confirmation that Kelly said she'd visited France. Not quite the same thing!

Sam, I have zero doubt in my mind she was a prostitute. I have also always believed that Barnett was little more than her pimp, and that a lot of what he said in relation to Mary Kelly were half truths, but that he was the only person to refer to her as Marie Jeanette bothers me for some reason.

[Hellrider]

only for understanding...how came Elisabeth Phoenix to know so quickly (within three days which was quick in that day and age I think) that it was "her" Kelly (out of thousands of Mary Kellys in London) who had been found butchered in the East End.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I have zero doubt in my mind she was a prostitute.

My point had nothing to do with that, Sox - I've no doubt that she was a prostitute either. I merely pointed out that the stories Barnett and Phoenix heard from Kelly about her past differed in respect of the frequency of Kelly's visits to France. This inconsistency suggests, to me, that Kelly might have been "flowering up" her past on both occasions - more exaggeratedly so, perhaps, with Phoenix, who also heard that Kelly had lived the "life of a lady", had been driven around in a carriage etc.

[perrymason]

My point had nothing to do with that, Sox - I've no doubt that she was a prostitute either. I merely pointed out that the stories Barnett and Phoenix heard from Kelly about her past differed in respect of the frequency of Kelly's visits to France. This inconsistency suggests, to me, that Kelly might have been "flowering up" her past on both occasions - more exaggeratedly so, perhaps, with Phoenix, who also heard that Kelly had lived the "life of a lady", had been driven around in a carriage etc.

Since Mary Kelly was far younger than any other Canonical and most unsolved Whitechapel/Spitalfields attack victims, she was said to be attractive and buxom...I personally have little doubt that the stories regarding her "fancy" consort experiences may well be accurate.

"Street" Women without the attributes Mary had would not have been given such opportunities...they would end up in Marys later state much earlier in their lives.

Mary was marketable, still, when she was killed....its certainly no stretch to imagine a year or 2 less of hard life on her physique and face might have left her a very viable "escort" type prostitute....as the role of her France trip seems to suggest.

We also have witnesses other than Barnett of her "fine dresses" that were recovered....Im sure pawned or sold long before she is found dead in her bed.

Best regards

[curious]

We also have witnesses other than Barnett of her "fine dresses" that were recovered....Im sure pawned or sold long before she is found dead in her bed.

Best regards

Is there any information that indicates why she moved to the Whitechapel area? She's been there about 3 years, right?

She was still young and pretty. So, why Whitechapel?

thanks,
curious

[perrymason]

Is there any information that indicates why she moved to the Whitechapel area? She's been there about 3 years, right?

She was still young and pretty. So, why Whitechapel?

thanks,
curious

I think in many cases curious, Whitechapel was at the end of a long slide down.....I think the fact that she ends up there so young and so desperate might have something to do with her feelings towards the kind of work she did and perhaps a less than business-like approach to her work ethic.

We know she frequently had run arrears before Millers Court....and we know by her description that she should have been in a far better position to attract a client than say Mary Ann Cox....who was perhaps a future warning to Mary in some respects.

My best regards

[DVV]

Is there any information that indicates why she moved to the Whitechapel area? She's been there about 3 years, right?

curious

Not that long apparently, although some accounts are conflicting.
In early 1887 she left Breezer's Hill to live with Fleming.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

We also have witnesses other than Barnett of her "fine dresses" that were recovered....

We only have the testimony of Mrs Phoenix on that and, whilst I don't doubt her story, it's possible that this, too, was part of a mythical "back-story" told to her by Kelly. The "fine dresses incident" doesn't enter Barnett's story as far as I can recall.

Incidentally, I sometimes wonder whether - if true - the recovery of the "dresses of costly description" wasn't an act of theft, or of receiving stolen goods, rather than a reclamation of property rightly belonging to Kelly herself.

[curious]

Not that long apparently, although some accounts are conflicting.
In early 1887 she left Breezer's Hill to live with Fleming.

Amitiés,
David

So, possibly she thought she was leaving prostitution?

There's testimony that a witness thought Fleming would marry her.

Was Fleming already in Whitechapel? Is that why they lived there together?

If that wasn't his home, why would they choose Whitechapel?

curious

[curious]

Incidentally, I sometimes wonder whether - if true - the recovery of the "dresses of costly description" wasn't an act of theft, or of receiving stolen goods, rather than a reclamation of property rightly belonging to Kelly herself.

Yes, I wonder what/who Kelly really was.

curious

[DVV]

So, possibly she thought she was leaving prostitution?

There's testimony that a witness thought Fleming would marry her.

Was Fleming already in Whitechapel? Is that why they lived there together?

If that wasn't his home, why would they choose Whitechapel?

curious

No, they moved to Whitechapel separately.
Fleming in Aug or Sept 1888, in the Victoria Home.
I don't know why Mary chose Whitechapel, but have some ideas regarding Fleming...

Amitiés
David

[Supe]

Just a few stray thoughts.

First, instead of all sorts of speculation about others using aliases so similar to "Mary Jane Kelly" perhaps it would be worthwhile to ponder "Kelly" herself adopting a name that was relatively common in the area at the time. In which case, of course, coincidence becomes the answer. As it is, the efforts of the best and brightest researchers have been stymied finding any documentation for "Kelly" as she described herself.

Secondly, though Kelly claimed to be about 25 there were, I recall, a couple of folks who claimed to know her by sight that averred she looked older, 30 or so. This is doubly interesting when you consider that all the other Canonic Five were initially said to look younger than what their ages turned out to be.

Just more points to ponder about this rather mysterious woman (and I suspect we can agree she was at least a woman).

Don.

[Archaic]

Good points, Don; thanks.

What you said about the victims' recorded ages vs. their claimed ages or their 'visual' ages is especially interesting.

We all know that their killer didn't ask them for birth certificates before killing them. Even if his warped psyche deliberately sought a particular type of victim in a particular age group, the killer still based his choices upon his own personal perceptions- which may or may not have been accurate, especially under poor lighting conditions.

Killers often choose a victim for symbolic reasons, whether conscious or unconscious, and it is their own psyche which ultimately decides
if a prospective victim in a given time and place is 'suitable' for their purposes.

Best regards, Archaic

[Natalie Severn]

Don,
It needs to be remembered that Walter Dew said in his memoirs that he knew Mary Kelly from his beat and that she was not only a beauty but also always looked fresh and clean.Mrs Phoenix said something very similar like---"she was as fair as a lilly" etc.Mind I think it was her landlord McCarthy who said she looked older and he probably saw her in a more jaundiced light as well as gaslight in his shop in the early hours after a night on the tiles.
Best
Norma

[Supe]

Norma,

What Walter Dew wrote many, many years later must, certainly, be part of the equation. But my experience in resolving that equation is that Dew's facts seem well balanced on the other side of the equal sign with his obvious embellishments. It may not be 50 years, but as I now remember women from when I was 25 they are all quite lovely, fair and fetching.

Don.