Real Name

[Phil Carter]

David,

No... by finding out the facts. So the killer will not be historical, even if he/she/they gloated when alive fact that the whole thing ended up a confused ball of a mess. I want the last laugh on the disgusting person(s) that was responsible for that mess.

best wishes

Phil

[KatBradshaw]

Ummm... it has just hit me...

I DO presume that all possibilities re O'Kelly have been looked into?

Or?

best wishes

Phil

I googled O'Kelly as its not a name I have heard a lot of, Kelly and various Irish spellings of that, yes, O'Kelly, no.
It seems though that there are more O'Kelly's than I would have thought.
Many Irish dropped the 'O' when they moved. I had an american friend whoes surname was Shea. It had been O'Shea but her ancestor had dropped the 'O' due to the anti-Irish feeling where they settled.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Phil!

I think, that probably all the possible Mary Kellies and O'Kelllies from the LVP have been studied.

All the best
Jukka

[Sox]

Everyone questioned by Police at the time refer to Mary Kelly as either Mary Jane or states that they knew her as Mary Jane Kelly.

Everyone except Joe Barnett that is. Given that Kelly is supposed to have been in London for four years by the time she died, I find this more than a little strange. She is even buried under the name Marie Jeanette Kelly.

Most of the witnesses questioned, it is assumed, met her after she took up with Barnett. So my question is this, if she told Barnett that her name was Marie Jeanette Kelly, why does everyone at Millers Court know her as Mary Jane, even her landlord? This means, that after she takes up with Barnett, and tells him that her name is Marie Jeanette, he is quite happy for her to tell everyone else, that her name is Mary Jane????

[DVV]

Hi Sox,

exactly. The only person "aware" of her (doubtful) trip to France is also the only person to know her as Marie Jeanette.
Mary apparently never told her female friends that she was born "Marie Jeanette", nor that she had visited France.
They wouldn't have trusted her, I think.
Barnett accepted both stories...and she was buried as Marie Jeanette.

One has to note that in French we would spell the name "Jeannette", not "Jeanette".

Amitiés,
David

ps: sincere apologies for our last exchanges. It's was (too) late.

[perrymason]

Hi Sox,

exactly. The only person "aware" of her (doubtful) trip to France is also the only person to know her as Marie Jeanette.
Mary apparently never told her female friends that she was born "Marie Jeanette", nor that she had visited France.
They wouldn't have trusted her, I think.
Barnett accepted both stories...and she was buried as Marie Jeanette.

One has to note that in French we would spell the name "Jeannette", not "Jeanette".

Amitiés,
David

ps: sincere apologies for our last exchanges. It's was (too) late.

We have stories from other than Joe Barnett about Marys past alliances and work experience, as well as her dresses...which were connected to said work and the location.

The affectation was clearly brothel mentality,.....the exotic Nome de plume and costume. It shouldn't be used to help and try to find her real name though, I don't imagine.

Mary had slid down to this street whore level....she didnt start there.

Best regards

[DVV]

I was merely saying that her name could have been Mary Jane Kelly, or Sinead O'Connor, but certainly not Marie Jeanette Kelly.
Not big stuff, I admit.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

We have stories from other than Joe Barnett about Marys past alliances and work experience, as well as her dresses

But not the Frenchified name, Mike - Dave was quite right to point out that "Marie Jeanette" was only mentioned by Barnett. Elizabeth Phoenix, who knew Kelly from her Breezer's Hill days, had this to say:

"about three years ago [the deceased] resided at her brother-in-law's house at Breezer's-hill, Pennington-street, near the London Docks... at that time she gave her name as Mary Jane Kelly".

Worth pointing out that Mrs Phoenix also states that Kelly had told of visits to Paris, so that's consistent with what she later told Barnett. In fact, whereas Barnett only mentions one visit to France, Kelly seems to have given Phoenix the impression that she'd made "several" visits to Paris.

[DVV]

Thanks for the correction, Sam,

where is Mrs Phoenix account available ? Is it in the Western Mail ?

Amitiés
David

[Sox]

But not the Frenchified name, Mike - Dave was quite right to point out that "Marie Jeanette" was only mentioned by Barnett. Elizabeth Phoenix, who knew Kelly from her Breezer's Hill days, had this to say:

"about three years ago [the deceased] resided at her brother-in-law's house at Breezer's-hill, Pennington-street, near the London Docks... at that time she gave her name as Mary Jane Kelly".

Worth pointing out that Mrs Phoenix also states that Kelly had told of visits to Paris, so that's consistent with what she later told Barnett. In fact, whereas Barnett only mentions one visit to France, Kelly seems to have given Phoenix the impression that she'd made "several" visits to Paris.

I had been on this for a few days now, so thanks for the confirmation Sam, I was thinking that perhaps I had missed something but I was fairly certain that only Barnett ever used the 'French' version.

Where I am going with this is: We have some confirmation that Kelly visited France, was Marie Jeanette a 'working name', did Barnett lie about exactly when & where he met Mary Kelly maybe?

And if so, why?

It seems to me as if she gave him a false name, and that is the one he came to know her by, when the rest of the world knew her as Mary Kelly.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
Hopefully this will clear this up.
Mary Jane was the name she was known as locally, although several nicknames were evident, her landlord never knew for certain, her full name he came to know her as Mary Jane Kelly a few months earlier when she came to live with a man called kelly, and as she posed as his wife, he then knew her as Mary Jane Kelly.
We know of course now that his real name was Barnett , but this name was obviously not give when residence was taken back in the feburary, one could speculate that his real name became apparent after the murder.
It is also intresting to know that McCarthy believed Kelly/Barnett to have been a coal porter some time back[ an occupation that one could have hardly missed].
The term Marie Jeanette was an ''affectionate term' used by Barnett, a sort of pet name, proberly originating from her trip to Paris, with all her'finery', the fact that it appears on her death certificate, appears to have been Barnetts wish, what we cannot know is, was this a name that would have been appreciated whilst Mary was alive, as Barnett himself stated at the inquest, 'she did not like the place'[ reference to her french trip]
Would Mary have wanted that on her death certificate?.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The name Lawrence, should be discussed more, this mysterious drover who visited Millers court on more then one occassion is never discussed on Casebook.
At least one person believed him to have been the dead womans husband, and she also believed that Mary visited him for periods, before tiring of it and returning to Barnett.
The 'Tiring' of it does seem to be in Mjks character , her trip to france, and her uncertainity in her choice of 'Joes' etc.
Apparently not long before she was killed , this man named Lawrence called on kelly, but did not appear to have contacted her ,as he left a message with a woman [ name escapes] living next door to take a summons in for him should it arrive.
I now have it in my mind, could this have been the man McCarthy sent packing, the man that apparently according to Fiona Kendall[ mccathys great grand daughter] saw off the man, when he called to see Mjk, accusing her of theft.
Anyway such a man should not be dismissed. was this Lawrence?
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks for the correction, Sam,

where is Mrs Phoenix account available ? Is it in the Western Mail ?

You'll find full accounts in the Star and Daily News of the 12th November 1888, both London papers. Evidently, given those publication dates, Mrs Phoenix came forward to the police before the inquest - so her story is especially useful as independent corroboration of what Barnett said, at least to the extent where Kelly's self-said "back-story" can be believed. Apart from that, Mrs Phoenix provides other biographical elements not covered by Barnett of Kelly's early years in the East End, so her testimony is doubly useful.

[Sam Flynn]

Where I am going with this is: We have some confirmation that Kelly visited France

Actually, Sox, we only have some confirmation that Kelly said she'd visited France. Not quite the same thing!

was Marie Jeanette a 'working name', did Barnett lie about exactly when & where he met Mary Kelly maybe?

I can't see why he should have done - in fact, it doesn't take too much imagination to work out from Barnett's story that he "picked her up" on the Street, so he's not hiding much about the nature of their first encounter. Furthermore, her death certificate - which, as the only next of kin, Barnett presumably had input to - describes her unequivocally as a "Prostitute".

[perrymason]

Gee.....we have an alleged alias of Mary Jane as Marie Jeanette and we have evidence that she may have gone to Paris perhaps as a "consort", and we have evidence that she had fancy dresses from the brothel....forgive me for putting 2 and 2 together.

Best regards