Did Mary know her attacker?

[Tron]

If Mary Kelly is on right hand side of the bed, facing the wall, when she is attacked...which is possible by medical opinion, then it might indicate that she was sleeping with someone, them being on the left hand side of the bed.

Ever been with a picky woman hogging "her" side of the bed? I think it is possible that it was simply colder by the door so she preferred sleeping away from the door (for whatever reason, I am sure Barnett would know...lol). It may be possible she was still allowing some of the women sleep in her room and therefore allowed them to get into the bed easily this way.

[paul emmett]

He[Blotchy] may not have spoke in a very high register, but he could have been singing in a very high register.
I was not uncommon for men to sing like that, I know it sounds funny, but believe me it is true.

Having always felt that the singing is one of the most perplexing pieces in the MJK killing puzzle, I was struck by this assertion. For me, NOONE sings for 75 minutes about anything, let alone dead mothers, unless they have motivation beyond drink. Indeed, I said on another thread, as we tried to figure out why MJK would be singing for so long, that if Cox had said Blotchy was singing, then I would imagine he was covering up sounds, post-mortem sounds I would surmise. I just always thought Cox had identified the continual crooner correctly.

[Tron]

How come nobody would have noticed? Apparently she liked to sing so I guess another high voice would have sounded differently. Nothing about the singing aroused any suspicion so I think it is safe to say the killer singing while butchering his victim is going to end up another red herring to be discussed endlessly without any true merit...

I mean...

Wouldn't it be risky to sing and possibly attract somebody?
Isn't it unlikely that the perpetrator can hold his or her pitch perfectly while at the same time performing physical labor?
What are the chances that the killer is also such a good singer?
How likely is a killer going to be able to match his or her voice to that of the victim?
When would he or she have practiced considering the short time Barnett left?
How do we have any contradiction if Mary was known to enjoy singing, be it while intoxicated or otherwise (it's not like she could watch TV or discuss stuff online)?
Where does the assertion come from that nobody is singing for 75 minutes or longer? Any proof to back that up?


Sorry if I am bursting bubbles...

[plang]

For heavens sake, now singing comes into the equation, gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with 'The Demon Barber, Sweeny Todd' ?

Plang

[paul emmett]

think it is safe to say the killer singing while butchering his victim is going to end up another red herring to be discussed endlessly without any true merit...


Where does the assertion come from that nobody is singing for 75 minutes or longer? Any proof to back that up?


Sorry if I am bursting bubbles...

Please, Tron, don't worry: you are, most assuredly, bursting no bubbles. As far as the 75 minutes go, Cox met MJK and Blotchy at the Court at 11:45, when Kelly said, "I'm going to have a song."(Strange phrasing itself, no?) Then Cox went to her room, from where she heard "her" singing "A Violet I plucked From My Mother's Grave When a Boy" "shortly afterwards." Cox left at 12:00 and there was still singing; she came back at 1:00 and there was still singing. Voila: 75--at least, because who knows how long it went on. Oh wait, I just checked. Cox then warmed her hands and went out again and there was STILL singing. 85--at least.

Now do I think that Blotchy was singing? Probably not. For some of the reasons you raised among your own red herrings like perfect pitch and good voice. How well could Cox know MJK's voice? She would just hear a high voice and figure it's MJK. Is it risky? Yep, but ,hell, the whole thing is risky, and how can we tell how JTR's mind works here?

Still, I don't think it's Blotchy, but I do think it's an interesting point--quite some ways from "another red herring." AND I think that Blotchy or no, Kelly's singing calls out for an explanation, at least once we realize it's so extensive.
It's much easier to insist what is not, than to figure out what is.

By the by, what are those other red herrings you referred to? I'm just curious to see where this fits in with your theories.

plang, you don't have to worry either: this has zippo to do with Todd. It just spoke to something I'd wondered about for a long time.

[Tron]

Please, Tron, don't worry: you are, most assuredly, bursting no bubbles. As far as the 75 minutes go, Cox met MJK and Blotchy at the Court at 11:45, when Kelly said, "I'm going to have a song."(Strange phrasing itself, no?) Then Cox went to her room, from where she heard "her" singing "A Violet I plucked From My Mother's Grave When a Boy" "shortly afterwards." Cox left at 12:00 and there was still singing; she came back at 1:00 and there was still singing. Voila: 75--at least, because who knows how long it went on. Oh wait, I just checked. Cox then warmed her hands and went out again and there was STILL singing. 85--at least.

I think you misunderstood me. You claimed nobody sings for 75 minutes or longer. In your own words: "...NOONE sings for 75 minutes about anything, let alone dead mothers".

Where is your proof to make such a ridiculous statement? Like I said, she had no TV and was poor, there certainly were limitations on what she could do to entertain herself or others.

How well could Cox know MJK's voice? She would just hear a high voice and figure it's MJK. Is it risky? Yep, but ,hell, the whole thing is risky, and how can we tell how JTR's mind works here?

It is not risky but conjecture based on no factual information. It would be likely that somebody would have noticed a difference since she was singing regularly.
While it does not really belong here, I feel there is not enough proof she is actually a Ripper victim so the Ripper's mind does not concern me.

Still, I don't think it's Blotchy, but I do think it's an interesting point--quite some ways from "another red herring." AND I think that Blotchy or no, Kelly's singing calls out for an explanation, at least once we realize it's so extensive.
It's much easier to insist what is not, than to figure out what is.

What kind of explanation do you want? She liked to sing and one night she was singing and murdered some time (we don't know) afterwards. So where is the mystery?

By the by, what are those other red herrings you referred to? I'm just curious to see where this fits in with your theories.

Anything related to outrageous claims about her being part of a royal conspiracy to her being alive or whatever else creative minds come up with that cannot be supported by a single fact.

[paul emmett]

Where does the assertion come from that nobody is singing for 75 minutes or longer? Any proof to back that up?

Tron, I quote from your earlier message to suggest where the misunderstanding comes from that you refer to in your next post.

If you don't want "JTR's mind," say "the killer's mind."

When I said "risky" in my last post, I was agreeing with you--yes it would be, as you said, risky. But we are not sure what the mind involved felt about risk.

None of this matters much since we just disagree about "mystery." I feel 85 minutes of singing warrents explanation; you don't. Do you think Blotchy killed MJK?

I also feel that The Ripper and the Royals has, as you suggest, been explained away. But on the other hand, I feel that Maxwell and the folks that saw MJK Friday morning present a mystery that still needs explanation.

What's the longest time you have ever sung for?

[Sam Flynn]

Chaps - nobody's suggesting that Kelly sung for the duration, are they? She may have sung a few songs in the hour or so she spent with Blotchy (assuming that it was Blotchy in there with her all that time), but I don't think we need assume that she was trying to break some kind of record

[paul emmett]

Chaps - nobody's suggesting that Kelly sung for the duration, are they? She may have sung a few songs in the hour or so she spent with Blotchy (assuming that it was Blotchy in there with her all that time), but I don't think we need assume that she was trying to break some kind of record

Hi, Sam.

Cox is pretty insistent. She says that she heard singing when she came in at 11:45, and then when she went out 15 minutes later, MJK is "still singing." She comes home at 1:00, and "she is singing then," too. She warms her hands--at least the same 15 minutes--and goes out again, and Kelly is "still singing." So it's more than "a few songs."

Cox herself accounts for half an hour. Then, there's the "coincidence" that Kelly is singing at 12 AND 1, so we don't know how much of the interim is song time, PLUS the fact that we don't know how much beyond 1:00 she goes on! That's why I say there needs to be an explanation somewhere.

[Sam Flynn]

But, Paul, it doesn't have to be "non-stop" singing, does it?

If there is any significance in Kelly's singing, might I suggest you open another thread? Given that Kelly could have been singing to a friend or a stranger - or both, if she'd had another visitor after Blotchy - it has little relevance to the subject of this one.

[Tron]

None of this matters much since we just disagree about "mystery." I feel 85 minutes of singing warrents explanation; you don't. Do you think Blotchy killed MJK?

It would warrant an explanation if this was a singular occurrence while in fact we have every reason to believe it is not. What alternative did she have to pass the time?

I also feel that The Ripper and the Royals has, as you suggest, been explained away. But on the other hand, I feel that Maxwell and the folks that saw MJK Friday morning present a mystery that still needs explanation.

I agree with you here. It seems it is possible that Mrs Maxwell saw her in the morning, at least there is no real evidence to prove otherwise. Unfortunately, there is nothing more to go on so unless somebody comes up with a definite time of death, it is simply speculation. If not that, maybe when and where she ate.

What's the longest time you have ever sung for?

I would sing for you but I doubt it would last more than 30 seconds before you found the duct tape...

[Supe]

Sam,

Kelly could have been singing to a friend or a stranger - or both, if she'd had another visitor after Blotchy

Ah, but you forget the rules of "evidence" around here. No one saw Kelly leave her room after she entered with Blotchy, and thus she didn't go out again that night. No one saw a friend or stranger enter after Blotchy so clearly none did.

Of course, strict adherence to that rule would mean that by all that is right and holy, Blotchy should have been sitting there by Kelly's body when McCarthy prised the door open the next afternoon. That he was wasn't there must mean he left unnoticed. Gee, you don't suppose, then, that Kelly might have gone out again that night unnoticed, do you?

Don.

[IchabodCrane]

No more than five minutes before the murder of Catherine Eddowes Joseph Lawende saw a man whose description does not match the one of the blotchy faced man seen by Ms Cox. Lawende is the only person who ever got a good look at the killer, although he claimed at the inquest that he probably would not be able to recognize the man. Still he was the police's best witness, and was used to clear Thomas Cutbush years later.

So if Blotchy was indeed the culprit in the Mary Jane Kelly case, he was still not Jack the Ripper. This we have to take as fact.

[paul emmett]

It would warrant an explanation if this was a singular occurrence while in fact we have every reason to believe it is not. What alternative did she have to pass the time.

Tron,we're getting there. The only evidence we have that it was not a singular occurence is that one of those women--Cox again?--said that MJK liked to sing. Clearly there is no way that this can imply that she sang the nights away. Do you then agree that it warrants an explanation--whatever that explanation be? As far as what else there was to do back then, there are still folks here who feel that Blotchy was a trick.

Ichabod, Hi. Your logic seems sound. A thick carroty moustache would indeed stand out. Is that why it seems so phony?

Supe, Hi. Isn't that the great thing about the Casebook: we all have different notions of evidence, and we are all able to share our "evidence" with our friends?

[Supe]

Paul,

Supe, Hi. Isn't that the great thing about the Casebook: we all have different notions of evidence

Um, I'm not sure "great" is the word I would use there.

Don.