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Did Mary know her attacker?

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  • Did Mary know her attacker?

    Hi all,

    Okay, I have been at the Casebook for a while now and since we lost alot of the old threads I thought that I would once again raise this question. Did Mary Kelly know her attacker.

    I have always sided with those who believe that Mary did not know who killed her and I have read all the arguments by peoople who I respect that claim that Kelly did indeed know her killer.

    A lot of arguments I dismiss as hapenstance. The position of Kelly's body. The fact that Kelly took the time and had the time to fold her cloths. Kelly was killed in her home, the door was locked and alot of others reasons.

    I feel the most obvious reason that may point to the fact that Kelly knew her attacker was Jack or someone else killed Mary the first real chance he had.

    Jack Killed on weekends and hollidays and the first real chance he had to get to Kelly he did. I believe it was the first weekend she was out on the streets after Barnett left her.

    It is odd that the Jack did not kill the whole month of October, I believe it was about six weeks, and the first chance he has, he gets Mary. I still believe that she was just unlucky. However I feel if we are looking for reasons to believe that Kelly may have known her attacker or her attacker was stalking Kelly or if Kelly was a copy cat crime, then the fact that he, Jack or somebody else, struck Mary the first real chance he had to do so is an interesting reason.

    Your friend, Brad
    Last edited by celee; 02-28-2008, 05:36 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by celee View Post
    Hi all,

    Okay, I have been at the Casebook for a while now and since we lost alot of the old threads I thought that I would once again raise this question. Did Mary Kelly know her attacker.

    I have always sided with those who believe that Mary did not know who killed her and I have read all the arguments by peoople who I respect that claim that Kelly did indeed know her killer.

    A lot of arguments I dismiss as hapenstance. The position of Kelly's body. The fact that Kelly took the time and had the time to fold her cloths. Kelly was killed in her home, the door was locked and alot of others reasons.

    I feel the most obvious reason that may point to the fact that Kelly knew her attacker was Jack or someone else killed Mary the first real chance he had.

    Jack Killed on weekends and hollidays and the first real chance he had to get to Kelly he did. I believe it was the first weekend she was out on the streets after Barnett left her.

    It is odd that the Jack did not kill the whole month of October, I believe it was about six weeks, and the first chance he has, he gets Mary. I still believe that she was just unlucky. However I feel if we are looking for reasons to believe that Kelly may have known her attacker or her attacker was stalking Kelly or if Kelly was a copy cat crime, then the fact that he, Jack or somebody else, struck Mary the first real chance he had to do so is an interesting reason.

    Your friend, Brad
    Hi Celee,

    The question is did Mary know her killer? I believe that she did.
    No forced entry and Mary was not on the street very long after Joe left.

    The attack on her face would tell you that it was personal, I have been rebutted about this because, most people think that Post Mortem Mutilation was suppose to mean Personal, but that was just Fantasy.

    This is a weak explanation but here it goes. If a woman thinks or knows that her man is cheating on her, she would find photographs of him and cut the face out, because she can not stand the sight of him, this becomes personal.
    It is just an example of what I mean as personal, a real hatred for the person.

    Mary’s killer knew her and hated her. Jack was too busy planning the street attacks to bother with Mary.

    This is my opinion only.
    In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is King !

    Comment


    • #3
      Well I think we have to define "know." It can run the gamut from meeting earlier that day, to a regular client, friend, close acquaintance, lover.

      c.d.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by c.d. View Post
        Well I think we have to define "know." It can run the gamut from meeting earlier that day, to a regular client, friend, close acquaintance, lover.

        c.d.
        You can pick any of the above, Mary knew her killer.
        In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is King !

        Comment


        • #5
          Nov 9 writes:

          "Jack was too busy planning the street attacks to bother with Mary."

          Just what elements do you suppose that planning included, Nov 9? You probably know that there is a wide span of theories on the subject, but it would be intresting to hear your view.
          My feeling is that Jack did not consider the Miller´s Court strike bothersome at all. Having said that, I have of course also responded to the question asked on the thread; Did Mary know her killer? In all probability no, I would say - but if she did, she knew the Ripper.

          The best!
          Fisherman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
            Nov 9 writes:

            "Jack was too busy planning the street attacks to bother with Mary."

            Just what elements do you suppose that planning included, Nov 9? You probably know that there is a wide span of theories on the subject, but it would be intresting to hear your view.
            My feeling is that Jack did not consider the Miller´s Court strike bothersome at all. Having said that, I have of course also responded to the question asked on the thread; Did Mary know her killer? In all probability no, I would say - but if she did, she knew the Ripper.

            The best!
            Fisherman
            Fisherman,

            I have posted on how Jack plans his site. This is from the mouths of convicted killers in the past of how they work their sites, and why they work it the way they do.

            I also posted on why Mary knew her killer.

            She knew her killer but not the Ripper that worked the streets.
            In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is King !

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NOV9 View Post
              She knew her killer but not the Ripper that worked the streets.
              Kelly worked the streets, too.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #8
                This is another one of those questions that can never be answered. There's absolutely nothing of any substance that suggests that Mary Kelly had to have known her killer, and there's nothing that can rule it out as a possibility either. Most serial killers pick strangers, but once in a while they do kill someone they know. There's no ground for any firm conclusion, but if we go by the probabilities, based upon other previous cases of this type, they point away from her having known her killer, not toward it.

                Dan Norder
                Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
                Web site: www.RipperNotes.com - Email: dannorder@gmail.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  Kelly worked the streets, too.
                  That is true she did.

                  But she did not die the way the others did, on the street.
                  In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is King !

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NOV9 View Post
                    That is true she did.

                    But she did not die the way the others did, on the street.
                    But the others serviced their customers on the streets, up against walls, on public stairs, in back yards, down dark alleyways, in parks or anywhere suitable they could find. That's because the others, unlike Kelly, did not have the luxury of their own private accommodation.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by celee View Post
                      Hi all,

                      However I feel if we are looking for reasons to believe that Kelly may have known her attacker or her attacker was stalking her or if Kelly was a copy cat crime, then the fact that he, Jack or somebody else, struck Mary the first real chance he had to do so is an interesting reason.

                      Your friend, Brad
                      I am interested in knowing what you all feel about this statement?

                      Your friend, Brad

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        But the others serviced their customers on the streets, up against walls, on public stairs, in back yards, down dark alleyways, in parks or anywhere suitable they could find. That's because the others, unlike Kelly, did not have the luxury of their own private accommodation.
                        Can you say for certain that Kelly did not do the same as the other girls?

                        Think about it? Jack was a Raptor type killer working his site with escape routes, why would he follow Mary to a place he may or not have studied to ensure his escape? As soon as she turned her back on him, in his kill site he would have taken her down. Jack style.

                        This is just my opinion because I was not there.
                        In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is King !

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Nov9,
                          Originally posted by NOV9 View Post
                          Can you say for certain that Kelly did not do the same as the other girls?
                          I'm sure Kelly did her share of "twopenny uprights" in dark alleys like the rest of "her class". There is testimony to the effect that she was indeed a streetwalker, as indeed many women in her situation then were. However, unlike many in her position, Kelly did have a private room at her disposal in which to entertain the occasional client if she chose.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by NOV9 View Post
                            why would he follow Mary to a place he may or not have studied to ensure his escape?
                            Presumably to kill her, I would imagine.

                            Just like he did with his other victims.

                            Dan Norder
                            Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
                            Web site: www.RipperNotes.com - Email: dannorder@gmail.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Brad,

                              Let my dismiss your argument about Kelly's killer being other than the Ripper because he killed her at his first opportunity. From this, I take it to mean that after Barnett left her, he struck at his first opportunity. Correct me if I'm wrong.

                              Barnett left at least as late as early September, by his testimony, and yet she was killed 2 months later. Surely, anyone stalking her would have found an earlier opportunity? As NOV9 suggests that the killer was someone who hated her; had a grudge against her, then this argument fails for the same reason. Why wait two months, and only on the weekend? I can't for the life of me understand why this would have been the best opportunity. Please explain why to me.

                              This killing was, in my mind, an opportunistic one, but not of a stalker or a vengeful lover, but opportunistic in the same way his other murders were. She was there when he was prowling, and she fell victim. It is just that simple, in my mind. Then again, the burden is not on me to prove anything.

                              Mike
                              huh?

                              Comment

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