No announcement yet.

Did Mary know her attacker?

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46

    I have no doubt that there are some parallels between the prostitutes whom "modern" serial killers stalk but, seriously, the "casual whores" who fell victim to the Ripper were precisely that - desperate women, who'd sooner "char" for transient employers, sell flowers, or glue match-boxes together than sell their bodies. We're not talking about regular or "career" prostitutes here, we're talking about women who'd pick up with any sozzled client as long as it made them the price of a bed for the night. We cannot compare them with the "career" prostitutes of recent years. We cannot even compare them with the women of Victorian "gay-houses" in the West End. Likewise their clients were no Shawcrosses or Sutcliffes. They were their male equivalents - raddled, knackered men of the London Docks and markets, as debauched and impoverished as the women on whom, for mere pennies, they spilled their sour spunk at the end of a drunken night.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)


    • #47
      Originally posted by NOV9 View Post
      And you would imagine correctly, but why would Jack leave his safe zone?
      Well, killing Kelly may have amounted to a SAFER zone. This was an easier kill for him, and one that provided time and light without the possible interruption of a patrolling PC. It was late at night and everyone was in bed, some, undoubtedly passed out from drinking. What more could a guy want in a 'safe zone'? I think this is inarguable from a stance of common sense. Lucky man, that Ripper. He got just what he wanted in a victim, and more.



      • #48
        In answer to the idea to be honest. However, I think that the killer may have known Eddowes & Kelly, but not necessarily the other way around.
        protohistorian-Where would we be without Stewart Evans or Paul Begg,Kieth Skinner, Martin Fido,or Donald Rumbelow?

        Sox-Knee deep in Princes & Painters with Fenian ties who did not mutilate the women at the scene, but waited with baited breath outside the mortuary to carry out their evil plots before rushing home for tea with the wife...who would later poison them of course


        • #49
          Sam I think you'll find that at least one of those women who 'would sooner char than sell her body' didn't feel the way you think she felt. Nicholls had a job charring after she left the Lambeth Workhouse. And she left it. I believe it was also Nicholls who said she'd had her lodging money three times on the night she died, and she'd drunk it. If she was hooking for a roof over her head, well she would have survived the night, wouldn't she. It's true that Chapman and Eddowes did other casual jobs occasionally as well as hooking. However every one of them was out on the game the night she died and I don't think they were after lodging money. They were after their next drink. Go round the back of one of the pubs in the Bigg Market in Newcastle. Or maybe take a trip to the Moss Side Estate in Manchester. You'll find similar women doing similar stuff. But we've evolved. So it's crank, not gin that is the fix du choix.


          • #50
            Okay - hopefully I don't sound too naive here. I haven't read quite as many books as some of you. Help me out a bit with why what I'm about to say could be right and wrong.

            I think that maybe since the streets had up'ed the PC's after his first few kills, that may be why he decided to kill indoors. For all I know he could have been the one to steal the key. Did Mary know him? Could be, but I've always thought that she may have been passed out from drink, and he came in.

            I don't know why the door would be locked once he left - he did like other's to "find" his leftovers. Maybe it locked itself when he shut the door. (kind of lock it was) I do think that he may have seen Mary before his kill and not exactly "pre planned" all of it, but I think he needed somewhere that he could do his work, without the chance of being caught. Again their were more PC's around after his other kills. He may very well have stole the key, or he may have just opened her door. If she was drunk she may have thought she locked it and didn't. Did he stalk her? Not so much, but did enough homework to know when ane where. Please give me your thoughts, and be gentle

            Sam - ..... be gentle now mah' man. Hehehehehhehe
            "Truth only reveals itself when one gives up all preconceived ideas. ~Shoseki

            When one has one's hand full of truth it is not always wise to open it. ~French Proverb

            Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first, it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident. ~Arthur Schopenhauer


            • #51
              All that you said was possible.All the 5 canonical victims came from Flower and Dean and Dorset St's.It might not have been a coincidence. He may have lived in or frequented these streets enough that he knew those victims from afar or interacted with them a liitle bit and possibly knew where they ply their trade.
              On Eddowes first night/early morning out in the streets drinking
              she was killed.After a few nights Mary Kelly did not have a friend sleeping in her room she was killed. This might be an indication that he hang around those streets.
              Its also possible he was at the right place at the right time.There has never been any material found that helped sway one's opinion one way or another
              in a somewhat convincing fashion.
              And beware of those people who will try to convince you their reasoning are better than yours.
              Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
              M. Pacana


              • #52
                Hi Chava,
                Originally posted by Chava View Post
                Sam I think you'll find that at least one of those women who 'would sooner char than sell her body' didn't feel the way you think she felt.
                They were living from hand to mouth by whatever means they could, so I'm in agreement with you there. My point is, however, that the fortysomethings of Spitalfields weren't "career prostitutes" in the main, and many of their customers weren't "career punters" - just pissed, filthy old buggers like themselves with a few pennies to spare, who fancied a grope with anybody, whenever gin or rum dissolved their better judgment and they had a few pennies to spare.

                The experience of Martha Tabram and Pearly Poll, on their pub-crawl with a couple of soldiers, is interesting. Anything for a drink, and - after the pubs shut - anything to get a bed for the night. This is in stark contrast to the "career" prostitute, who'd aim to make a "profit", rather than the price of a bed, from as many customers as possible. The model operated by the desperate women of Spitalfields was not the same as the modern-day "LaShayna" and company, with their attempts at cheap glamour, their handbags primed with supplies of condoms or their phone numbers on pre-printed cards.

                There are similarities - of course there are - but there are sufficient cultural differences that lead me to be wary of applying the Shawcross/Sutcliffe comparison to the events of 1888.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)


                • #53
                  Hi Gareth,

                  I agree in part, but I'm sure you'd also agree that there's no such thing as "career" prostitution in the sense that women aspire for that occupation. Desperation is prompted by a variety of factors. In the LVP, it was in order to secure a night's sleep in a grotty lodging house. Today, it is often an addiction to heroine or other hard drugs that lead to a life on the streets. The "desperation" isn't any less potent in either case, and I doubt any woman in either situation would describe themselves as career prostitutes. Even if Jack's victims were "irregular" streetworkers, by middle-age it is almost inconceibale that they hadn't built up something resembling a client-base.

                  Best regards,


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Ben View Post
                    Even if Jack's victims were "irregular" streetworkers, by middle-age it is almost inconceibale that they hadn't built up something resembling a client-base.
                    I can't be so certain, Ben. I've already alluded to Chapman's arrangement with Ted Stanley - but that's as close as I feel it could get for a woman of Annie's type. Surely, the more worn-out, desperate and gin-sodden these women became, the less certain a "regular client base" can be assumed. These women found what they could - darning clothes, charring, making menthol cones, ironing, making straw dolls, gluing matchboxes, peeling vegetables, picking hops, washing dishes, etc. For the casual prostitute, selling herself was just another desperate option to be taken as and when necessary.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)


                    • #55
                      Hi Gareth,

                      Stanley was more of a boyfriend, as you mentioned earlier. For every worn-out passed-it prostitiute, there would have been a plentiful supply of male equivelents in the district, none of whom were likely to have been very discerning about with women they went with. Even younger soldiers were willing to accompany Martha Tabram and Pearly Poll up dark alleys. By regular clients, I don't mean men who would delibately target one prostitute for sex and retain some sort of loyalty. I'm referring more to "familiar faces" in the district that the prostitutes were likely to encounter fairly often, whether they were prostituting, charring, hawking or whatever; someone akin to "Mondeo Man" - the nickname given to Steve Wright by a few prostitutes in Ipwitch.

                      Best regards,
                      Last edited by Ben; 03-01-2008, 03:40 PM.


                      • #56
                        Hello all,

                        It seems that the immediate response to the thread question has been another question...could the killer have met any of the victims as a client before later becoming their killer.

                        That is certainly possible, and we do know that at least a few women had connections with Dorset St, but I dont believe thats what the thread was intended to address. I believe its whether there are any indications that Mary Kelly, and only Mary Kelly at this point, might have known her attacker.

                        Since you been discussing street prostitution, and whether the killer may have picked one or more of the Canonicals up while she was soliciting before he picks her up to kill her sometime later,..implying that he could expect to locate them again based on their work habits, routines and preferred locations. If thats the case....then he either must have followed Mary Kelly one night to see where she lived, or she must have told him her address herself, because its very possible that Mary Kelly was not working at all the night she is killed, and may not have left her room after midnight.

                        If Mary Kelly did not go out after Blotchy Man came home with her, and Blotchy was still there after 1:30am, Blotchy Man is the number one suspect. If Mary Kelly did'nt go out, but Blotchy left before 1:30am, then you have to include people who know Mary on the suspect list.

                        The Ripper most assuredly acquired the 4 attributed victims while they were dressed for late fall, working or hanging about on street corners outdoors, ones they might frequent when working, and they all may well have been soliciting. But they all were dressed and outside when he meets them.

                        You cannot say that with any assurance when determining how, and where, Marys killer acquired her. And if by coming to her room directly, that leaves the possibility that he knew her wide open.

                        My best regards all.


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Ben View Post
                          I'm referring more to "familiar faces" in the district that the prostitutes were likely to encounter fairly often
                          But in order for that to work, Ben, we have to assume that:

                          a) these women worked the streets regularly over a period of time - something which is doubtful even in the case of Mary Kelly, especially when Barnett had money;

                          b) that they frequented the same beats on a regular basis - we don't know that, and Dew (for what it's worth) ascribes at least two such "beats" to Mary Kelly;

                          c) that there were regular users of prostitutes in the area, as opposed to men wanting to scratch a sudden "itch" once in a while, after they'd consumed too much ale;

                          d) that, if (c) were true, they'd have been seen on a regular basis by the likes of Annie, Polly and Kate to the point where the women felt "comfortable" with them.

                          Bearing in mind that recognising anyone in the anonymous wash of the East End was a bit of a challenge, I can't equate this with the "Mondeo Man" situation - for a start, Wright actually lived within the only Red Light District of Ipswich. Even if he hadn't, and preferred to cruise into town a la Shawcross or Ridgway, there were only a limited number of regular prostitutes who frequented comparatively well-lit streets, and most of them would have been young and dolled-up to the nines.

                          None of this would have applied to the middle-aged casual prostitutes of the East End. I just don't see an 1888 equivalent of Wright wandering down to Aldgate on the off-chance of meeting his beloved "Toothless Betty" of a Saturday night. The dynamics - the culture - are significantly different.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)


                          • #58
                            Hi Mike,
                            Originally posted by perrymason View Post
                            You cannot say that with any assurance when determining how, and where, Marys killer acquired her.
                            Precisely where or how Mary picked up her killer really doesn't matter in terms of whether she knew him or not. She might just as easily have picked up a stranger as someone she knew.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)


                            • #59
                              Hi Michael,
                              I still am not convinced that the man Mrs Cox described ,ie the man that was with MJK en-route from Dorset street to millers court ever existed with the description we know as Blotchy face.
                              Reasons to repeat.
                              The clothing described by Cox that kelly was then wearing does not match that of Praters account some three hours earlier that is fact
                              The actual sighting has two accounts one made to the police at the time.
                              The one relayed to Colin wilson many years ago by Coxs neice, who said her aunt was 'waiting by her door' for her husband to arrive home.
                              The man also goes from a shabby man , to a 'Real Toff' complete with Kellys conversation to him.
                              I am sorry I am so persistant with this view , its simply i do not belief Cox, and I have always expressed doubts about Kelly doing a karoke set in front of a drunken companion which no one else has seen or heard except one dodgy witness.
                              Regards Richard.


                              • #60
                                Sam writes that one prerogative for speaking about built-up clienteles of punters would be...

                                "that there were regular users of prostitutes in the area, as opposed to men wanting to scratch a sudden "itch" once in a while, after they'd consumed too much ale"

                                Now, what you say about the different culture and dynamics of society would of course have an impact, Sam. But I know that what I have read on punters point very clearly to the ones buying sex just the one time or very occasionaly being a minority, whereas those who get into paying for sex very often become long-time frequent users of prostitutes. My own guess is that they simply like the lacking demands on commitment and responsibility, or they find it difficult to play the game that is required to become intimate friends with women. If that is correct, we are talking of a phenomenon that would not be typical for our own times - it would have applied in Victorian England too. Be that as it may, what does count here, though, is that those who pay for sex more often than not seem to do so on a regular basis.
                                Out on the net, there are even sites where punters pass judgements on street prostitutes as if it was just another commodity from the grocer´s store. And that points clearly to an established net of users of prostitutes. I spent a couple of minutes searching for the like of this in Britain, and it did not take me long to find "punternet", which is exactly what I am talking about.

                                The best, Sam!