Did Mary know her attacker?

Michael, I have already tried to answer this in part, but you never responded. Eddowes was thought to be meeting someone in MSquare, and the women all seemed to buy into JTR; they let their guards down to the point that I feel they knew him.

And besides, don't you yourself believe that Stride knew her killer? And then there's the old tournabout: show me they didn't know him.

Hope all is well. See you on the Maxwell thread after dinner.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Well, I wont argue that the police had a theory that Kate may have had a pre-arranged meeting, but I will argue that they had any proof on which to base that suggestion, or anything we have been made aware of more exactly. Liz is almost certainly killed by Broadshouldered Man, and no, I dont think she knew him, or that he was Kidney for example. There is no reason to suggest that.

My personal opinion on these ladies is irrelevant, I cant prove what I believe is the case with Kates killing, or Marys or Liz's....but I think there is evidence present that they are not necessarily as they were categorized....Ripper victims.

In the case of the most dramatic killing, I believe it is poor investigative work to state that she didnt know her killer...as we fairly safely can with the others, because the evidence on record clearly suggests her killer perhaps came to her room.

Sorry if I missed responding to something before Paul, best regards.

[Tron]

So..........it appears, by the records, that Mary may well have stayed in with her full belly and polluted liver, and secured roof... and been in the dark in her room since 1:30am.

On paper its the most probable answer. And that leaves a man knowing her, and her room, and maybe how to use the window/latch method, firmly on the table.

Like I mentioned before, a big problem is that we don't know when she had dinner and with whom. I fear you are also a bit quick to assess witness statements.

The last point is somewhat true. While I favor the theory of an intimate partner homicide, I also see the possibility that she was known in the area and so might have been her address. In essence we have absolutely nothing that proves whether she knew her killer or not, at least so far i have not seen any concrete evidence.

If the 3:45ish faintish cry heard by Sarah dozing on the Keylers chair, and Elizabeth Prater, somewhere above Mary, thought to have come from the court...was from Marys room, I think you have to mark that as either her arrival home, or her greeting the person who arrived at her door. It is clearly not the attack commencement as some have suggested, there is no further noise heard, by someone listening for further noise, in the same house.

So, you either have Mary arriving, after she supposedly had already with Astrakan, or Mary being in the room alone... greeting someone she then lets in.

My best.

Hi Gareth,

It certainly is if she never went out again after midnight though....something however distasteful to you, we cannot rule out using surviving documents and time-trusted statements on record.

Its is the crux here gents, and Im afraid that I can only win if the records are complete, or in this case, lacking anything contrary.. on the matter of Kellys status in her room for the balance of the evening, and you can only win if they are not complete, using a discredited witness, and a trip out and back at least once was unseen by all the people who gave trusted statements.

Mary Ann Cox was trusted...her Blotchy Man becomes the primary suspect by Nov 16th...Sarah was trusted, her Wideawake Man may have helped spark a Pardon issuance within 24 hours, Elizabeth Prater is trusted apparently, since the key point of her testimony is not the "cat waking" but the status of Marys room when she ascends the stairs for bed, ...George Hutchinson was not trusted to have given an accurate suspect description, and due to its flowery embellishments, its impossible to believe it was accidental, and Caroline Maxwell was considered incorrect before taking the stand, she countered all accepted evidence about the corpse.

So..........it appears, by the records, that Mary may well have stayed in with her full belly and polluted liver, and secured roof... and been in the dark in her room since 1:30am.

On paper its the most probable answer. And that leaves a man knowing her, and her room, and maybe how to use the window/latch method, firmly on the table.

My best regards Sam.

[paul emmett]

Michael, I have already tried to answer this in part, but you never responded. Eddowes was thought to be meeting someone in MSquare, and the women all seemed to buy into JTR; they let their guards down to the point that I feel they knew him.

And besides, don't you yourself believe that Stride knew her killer? And then there's the old tournabout: show me they didn't know him.

Hope all is well. See you on the Maxwell thread after dinner.

Paul

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Mary died undressed, in her own room, and her killer very probably came directly to her room by himself. Thats the known facts.

Avast there, me old mucker! The known fact is that Kelly was found partially undressed in her own room, and if the killer "very probably came directly to her room by himself" it is certainly not among the known facts.

Hello again,

Im really tired of comments like "thats ridiculous" when countering a point made, instead of showing where an error was made using evidence and documentation.

Ok Sox, you issued the challenge...using only what we know that is documented, name one other Canonical Victim that has the potential for some pre-existing knowledge of killer and victim, prior to their death....implicit in the evidence gathered.

Prove what I said was incorrect.

Here, Ill even give you the list;

Mary Ann Nichols
Annie Chapman
Liz Stride
Kate Eddowes

Now, which one is it that you contend has the real possibility the killer may have known his victim presented in the murder investigation evidence gathered? Mary Ann? Since we have no witnesses, and she was killed outdoors, away from her accommodations, there is no evidence to suggest she was anything other than a random selection by her killer. Annie? It appears she took a client to where whores took clients, and she dies in a strangers backyard, nothing in that to suggest the killer may have known her,... Liz....she is seen assaulted just before she dies, by someone she did not refer to by name, or act friendly towards, and he is by far the most likely killer of her by proximity and timing,... so, no indication that she knew him at all,... and Kate was killed in the City, where she likely had few friends, in a public square...again, not one shred of evidence to even suggest that she met her demise by anyone other than a possible client or stranger.

All 4 above were away from their usual residences, and likely working selling themselves on public streets and in private back yards.

Mary Kelly however, it appears, was at home alone very likely sleeping when her killer comes to her room. He may have come by chance, sure..... but on paper, it is very possible that the killer knew Mary Kelly, and where she lived...because he very likely comes to her room alone.

Point being Sox, you can effectively rule out the probability of personal attachments in all the prior victims with their killers. There is nothing in known evidence to suggest it. In the case of Mary Kelly, it is right there smacking you in the face. Mary died undressed, in her own room, and her killer very probably came directly to her room by himself. Thats the known facts. If you dont agree that scenario allows for a "known" killer of Mary, then you are most definitely incorrect.

I think its important that the concept of what unsolved murders are isn't discarded....there is no proof a "Jack the Ripper" or any one man man killed the "Canonicals"...they are a group of unsolved murders that investigators linked, not the evidence,....as the "evidence" in most cases is only a review of the wounds for similarity.

My best regards.

[Sox]

I think that maybe since the streets had up'ed the PC's after his first few kills, that may be why he decided to kill indoors.

My bold

There you have the crux of the matter, that one word, decided. There is a key element in the question posed by the OP that must be decided, and that question is: Was Kelly a Ripper victim? If you accept that she was, then the chances are, that it was she herself who chose the place where she died, not her killer.

Chava, ask yourself why the killer was murdering these women in autumn. Contrary to your belief, these women did prefer to earn an honest bob, as opposed to selling sex, and as the summer waned, the chances of earning that honest bob waned with it. The exception to this is Kelly, who seems to have been a common prostitute.

No other canonical victim has the real possibility that she was selected, and possibly knew her killer, other than in the evidence regarding Mary Kelly.

Sorry Mike but thats just nonesense.

[celee]

Hi,

In my opinion there is nothing at all that indicates that Mary Kelly knew her attacker. Ther a blanket statement, the emperor has no cloths.

Your friend, Brad

[paul emmett]

Hi, Chava.

I'm more of a same hand, different reasons guy. Although Joan still goes for progressions, which I do see. Now it's "less Reubenesque."

Have a good day.

[Chava]

No Paul. I have always agreed with you. In my opinion the first four are all far too similar for it to be a coincidence--although I'm aware that many people will point out that there must have been hundreds of similar women out there on the nights when he killed. Nevertheless I believe he had a particular kind of victim in mind and killed when he found her. That is why I think it's entirely possible that Kelly was killed by a different hand. Or by the same hand for different reasons...

But that doesn't mean that she knew him, which was my point, Mike. Therefore, whether she stayed in or went out again, it has little or no relevance to whether or not she knew her killer.

Sam,

I didnt say she knew him....I said the scenario on record allows for the possibility.... that he did not randomly select Mary Kelly while she trawled for clients in alleys. Sure, he may have tried the door and found it unlocked, or found the window method while there, but its also possible he knocked and was let in by Mary, or let himself in but was allowed to stay when Mary sees who it is. The faintish cry of approx 3:45am perhaps corroberates one of those possibilities, she is awakened, but allows the person who woke her without any appreciable noise or conversation, to stay...a nosey unfortunate upstairs attested to that.

No other canonical victim has the real possibility that she was selected, and possibly knew her killer, other than in the evidence regarding Mary Kelly.

My best regards Sam.

[paul emmett]

As for how long it would take him to find a victim, there do seem to be a lot of 'unfortunates' around. And I believe Mayhew suggested there were upwards of 60000 prostitutes working in London in the mid-century. So I assume there was a fair amount of choice. Of course you then have to narrow it down to personal predeliction, area of hunt, area of kill etc. But I can't imagine he would have had to spend too long looking. Unless he was looking for an exact type--which of course would fit in with the first 4, all of whom are remarkably similar in my opinion. But others would give me an argument on that

Hi, Chava.

No argument here: I'm the one--and I did think it was ONE--who thinks JTR is selective. I too think that there were aplenty to select from. And so I felt that the times of the kill, and perhaps even the times between kills, suggest he's not just settling for the first warm and willing body he haps upon.

I also like the similarities in the first(I'm for Tabram) 5. Indeed, I even think the progressions are important. My fiancee' said last night, "they get a bit prettier and younger looking." And she was just paging through "theoryless."

[Chava]

Hi Paul,

I wasn't referring to the Ripper, but to any punter who picked up any of the first 4 women. I doubt they would be pricing their charms very highly, and probably performed for the price of a tot of gin. What the Ripper could afford I've no idea!

As for how long it would take him to find a victim, there do seem to be a lot of 'unfortunates' around. And I believe Mayhew suggested there were upwards of 60000 prostitutes working in London in the mid-century. So I assume there was a fair amount of choice. Of course you then have to narrow it down to personal predeliction, area of hunt, area of kill etc. But I can't imagine he would have had to spend too long looking. Unless he was looking for an exact type--which of course would fit in with the first 4, all of whom are remarkably similar in my opinion. But others would give me an argument on that

[paul emmett]

A known killer is someone who knows Mary, but she needn't have know him well...or maybe at all....or its someone she does know well, but he doesnt know her well, or they are both well know to each other.

Those scenarios could be applicable here, and there is not one other attributed Ripper kill that we can say the evidence suggests that there may be some connection between killer and victim.

Hi, Michael. Certianly all of those scenarios could be applicable. But as you know there was talk at the time that Eddowes met her killer. And then there's the whole Stride thing, but I'm not going there. I guess I lean towards they knew him because they seem to have really let their guards down.

For MJK, I think, for example, she knew Blotchy: you don't sing sad songs to a complete stranger.

Chava, I am concerned why you said that they might be all he could afford.

I also am curious about how long it might take JTR to pick up just any old "willing" victim. Suppose he starts wandering the streets, say midnight on a weekend or holiday, how long do you feel that, on the average, he would walk? His selection or lack thereof has come up on so many different threads, I ask myself this often. I just can't answer it all that well.