Did Mary know her attacker?

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

Why would Mary feel safer on the street as opposed to her own room when all the previous victims had been killed in the street?

c.d.

[Chava]

We don't know that they didn't; and if they had it wouldn't have stood out or been very notable.

If they had in some small way smelled greasy food or fish it probably wouldn't have been too different from the standard odor. Greasy food would have been a staple of her diet, no doubt, and certainly Barnett could have brought a lasting odor of fish with him many times.

And certainly the idea that the small would have been at all notable with the other odors in that room (burnt clothes, rotting flesh, pools of blood, and all around gore) is just not at all realistic.

Well, first of all we're arguing about nothing, since no one noted a smell of fish and chips. However the flesh wouldn't have been rotting yet. The blood would have smelled quite a bit when fresh, but probably by the time they got there, not so much. The charred material would have smelt a bit but it wouldn't have overpowered other smells. Barnett hadn't been around for a while. And Kelly had fish and chips in her system. So she ate that meal outside rather than in the room since there was no smell of food and no greasy wrappers. That in itself is interesting, because it would be good to find out where and when she bought her meal. If it was before Blotchy Face appears, then BF could still be on the hook as a possible suspect. If after, he isn't.

[paul emmett]

Hi Paul,

I am not sure I understand your post. The scenario I described would take him out of the stranger category but why is he in that category in the first place?

c.d.

Hi c.d.

I know this is out of place now, but I wanted to clarify that the "stranger" part was from Sam's original assertion.

Hi, Michael.

I don't know no madmen. Besides, I'm way beyond 50-50 for accident-on purpose.

[Dan Norder]

In fact, if they did smell fish and chips in the room, which they did not, it would have been a clear indication that some were consumed there.

We don't know that they didn't; and if they had it wouldn't have stood out or been very notable.

If they had in some small way smelled greasy food or fish it probably wouldn't have been too different from the standard odor. Greasy food would have been a staple of her diet, no doubt, and certainly Barnett could have brought a lasting odor of fish with him many times.

And certainly the idea that the small would have been at all notable with the other odors in that room (burnt clothes, rotting flesh, pools of blood, and all around gore) is just not at all realistic.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Nor do I. But it still seems less outlandish to me than a prospect of a "prior arrangement". Why take the risk when Kelly could have told others what she doing and who she was seeing, and at what time? Hardly worth it.

[steje73]

She had been in the locked room for a while and had no doubt attracted flies and so on to her mildly decomposing flesh. The smell of burned clothes and melted metal from the kettle would also have been there. The general smell of day to day living in a place with lots of people crammed in to a small area without air fresheners or deodorant.
Nobody is going to have a gentle sniff and say 'Hmm. Cod.'

Hello all,

I would think Mary knew Mary Ann Cox, and what she did for a living....and likewise Mary Ann of Mary. Mary Kelly said "goodnight" to Mary Ann Cox before midnight....when its quite possible that in the life of a normal street whore, they might see each other out working at all hours of the night, long after midnight. It may indicate that she didnt think she'd be running into Mary Ann later on, because she was intending to stay in.

Not a smoking gun by any means, but it can be added to the circumstantial pile that says Mary didnt go out again.

In which case...thanks Paul,...(although you hedged you bet quite a bit, as if you were backing a known madman )... the possibility she knew her attacker is among the two answers as to how he came to Millers Court to kill Mary Kelly...IF she didnt go out, he came in by chance or he knew who he was looking for.

That may not address whether Mary knew him at all....but it does aid that arguments possibilities.

So...you have a killer that may have entered the court looking for Mary Kelly specifically, or someone who randomly accesses her room. There is also a known man in the guise of Blotchy Face...a 50-50 shot for the previous point though. You have Mary Kelly bidding her neighbor good night, which implies Mary Kelly did not think she would see Mary Ann again that night, you have all court based witness testify that during the course of the evening, and their passes by Marys room, it remained dark and quiet after 1:30am, ...and you have some specific wounds and circumstances, among which is the killer locking the door, that would lead one to conclude that it cannot be ruled out that Mary Kelly may have known her killer.

This issue is not about one witnesses account, or all of them, its also about the circumstantial factors, and many indicate that her killer may have at least known where her room was...something that only court residents or Marys closest friends would likely know about.

This woman was reported to have been scared by the Ripper press that Barnett read to her....Elizabeth Prater puts furniture against her door inside the house, so the likelihood that at this time in history, street prostitutes would readily divulge the location of their room, or start bringing strange men into her home, is far less than may have normally been the case.

Why would you accept that Mary starts bringing men into her room when Jack the Ripper is still at large, and with his last kill, showed he can kill anywhere he likes...even twice a night. That room is the only sanctuary Mary has....just like many of her kind probably. The ones lucky enough to have landlords that wont toss them for rent arrears, or even have a room in their own name.

So.....it would seem, based on Marys fears, the fact the killer is still at large, and Marys known habits up until November 1st, her bringing strange men to her room seems unlikely, and as we can see, the only man aside from her beaus that have been in Marys room since Barnett left is someone she sings to, for over an hour...off an on.

I think she entertained Blotchy while they ate the food Blotchy got for them on the way to Marys. Mary Ann Cox, from her vantage point, may well have missed a bulge in the coat pocket of Blotchy, or he could have had some fish chowder, with potatoes, in his mug. How Mary Ann missed the food isnt important, what is is the nature of that room visit...by all appearances, a friendly visit, is.

If Blotchy never leaves. he likely kills Mary. Known man. If Blotchy leaves and Mary goes out, bringing home Astrakan...it is the first "customer" that we know of, and still might be just someone Mary knows. If Blotchy leaves, and Mary doesnt go out, then someone either finds her room by accident, or on purpose. 50-50, Known Man.Someone knowing where her room was should be someone she knows..as we have shown earlier.

I cant think of any more ways to illustrate that we have ample reasons to include a man known to Mary as her possible killer. It cannot be ruled out....using what we know, and if she never left that room after midnight.

Ok...Thats it...enough energy expended on this lone subject...I'm sure much to the relief of many here, but if I cant make anyone see the reality above, then its probably my weak explanation, rather than anyones inability to see the logic contained within.

My best regards all...

[Witch]

So I guess the appropriate response would have been to take one look and run screaming? In fact, if they did smell fish and chips in the room, which they did not, it would have been a clear indication that some were consumed there. And the autopsy would show that they were eaten by Mary Jane. And that might have cast some light on her last movements before she was killed. The cops had precious little at their disposal then in terms of forensics, but they did have noses.

And I am pretty sure they couldn't smell anything but a heavy stench of blood, faeces and other bodily fluids coming from Mary's body.

[c.d.]

Hi CD,

I just feel there's too much danger of the killer "trapping" himself unnecessarily if he arranges to meet Kelly earlier in the week. It needn't have been a name, just a description or even a nickname that prostitutes often give to clients.

Hi Ben,

Sorry but I just don't see Mary telling a friend that "I have a customer coming over on Saturday night who is 5'7" and weighs approximately 150 pounds, has long brown hair and a mustache and a fondness for wearing Ashtrakan coats. Said his name is John but likes to be called Jack."

c.d.

[Chava]

Chava said that a fish supper would have stunk up the room. I'm sure that the first thing everyone thought when they went in that room was 'Can you smell chips?'

So I guess the appropriate response would have been to take one look and run screaming? In fact, if they did smell fish and chips in the room, which they did not, it would have been a clear indication that some were consumed there. And the autopsy would show that they were eaten by Mary Jane. And that might have cast some light on her last movements before she was killed. The cops had precious little at their disposal then in terms of forensics, but they did have noses.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

I just feel there's too much danger of the killer "trapping" himself unnecessarily if he arranges to meet Kelly earlier in the week. It needn't have been a name, just a description or even a nickname that prostitutes often give to clients.

[c.d.]

Hi Paul,

I am not sure I understand your post. The scenario I described would take him out of the stranger category but why is he in that category in the first place?

c.d.

[paul emmett]

Hi Paul,

Mary's killer might have been invited in if he was a regular customer or if he had made an appointment with her earlier in the day or week.

c.d.

Hi, c.d.

Wouldn't that take him out of the stranger category?

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

Well I doubt that Jack would have used his real name and besides a prostitute having a customer would hardly be big news.

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

The problem with the idea of a prior "appointment" is that Kelly could have blabbed about it to any number of people. "Any business tonight, Mary?" "Yep, I'm expecting (fill-in-the-blank) tonight".