Definitely canonical

[FrankO]

On your first paragraph above, I think that its a mistake to say that we dont know that he was unsatisfied with the acts that were performed outdoors at all,...

Hi Mike,

You must have misunderstood, but what I tried to say was that what he did out in the streets definately satisfied him, but that doesn't mean that that was all that could or would satisfy him. I don't want to offend anyone, but picture this. You're an adolescent and you've been with a girlfriend for quite some time. What would you 'go for' first when you brought your girlfriend home and you had some 10 minutes or so to say goodbye for the night before she got inside? And what would you do when her parents wouldn't be home and you had the night to yourselves inside her home? Is there a difference? If so, then you know what I mean.

On the second, you cant really suggest that the flaps made with Marys abdomen flesh were done to aid accessing abdominal organs he will take with him, can you?

Why not?

Like I said before, there is no way of knowing why he used one way of opening up Chapman's abdomen and another with Eddowes', there's just the fact that he did. We can second-guess all that we want, but we'll never know. And if he did it like that in Chapman's case, there no need to think he couldn't or wouldn't again in Kelly's case. Or that it was more or less likely to happen again.

If it was the Ripper who killed and butchered Kelly, then he did in fact apply the same mode of opening up her abdomen. And I don't see why he did that for any other main purpose than to just have access to the organs inside. Regardless of whatever he did or didn't do with those organs afterwards. That really has nothing to do with the way he gained access to the organs in the first place.

As to the taking of her heart, he may just as well have come up with that idea later on in the process. For instance, he may have thought of that when he had cut off her breasts and saw the heart through the ribs. On the other hand, in Eddowes' case he also took away an organ that was placed higher up in the left side of the torso, not far below the heart.

You and David and Sam and others have noticed that a technique that is rare is used on 2 murders that are within the Canonical Group. The second and the 5th.

What I've noticed is that, in 4 victims that had their abdomen cut at one point or another in the whole phase of being attacked, a certain technique is used twice, in the 2nd and 4th. I wouldn't call it a rare technique.

Youve failed to account for the probability that if Marys killing was intended to look like a Ripper killing by copying some of his acts....of course not where he finds victims in this case, or how he starts the attack in the case, ...he would have at his disposal information prior to the murder that discusses the various things Jack does to women postmortem.

I already acknowledged that details that had been disclosed by the press could be used by anyone who would want to have his murder look like a Ripper murder. So, if MJK was actually butchered by such a person, it would be smart to copy at least some of the things he had read or heard about the murders. And plenty had been written about it in the papers.

My contention has always been that Mary is probably not Jacks work ....

No problem there.

It wasnt...and still isnt.

Couldn't agree with you more.

The best, Mike!
Frank

[Malcolm X]

it looks like with the other victims, that they only had to be Female, he didn't give a damn what they looked like/age etc, but the last victim was different, she was very special in his mind, a symbol of something!

i'm trying to get right back to basics now and many things are starting to make sense, that didn't before..sometimes one cant see the wood for the trees!

[Sam Flynn]

If it was the Ripper who killed and butchered Kelly, then he did in fact apply the same mode of opening up her abdomen [as with Chapman]. And I don't see why he did that for any other main purpose than to just have access to the organs inside...

... and a lot MORE organs in the case of Kelly - hence the more complete "de-flapping" of her abdomen than he was able to achieve in the time- and fence-constrained surroundings of the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

[CitizenX]

If MJK was a copycat killing to be blamed on Jack, why would the killer go to such extremes?

A woman found with her throat cut would have been enough at that time to suggest that Jack had struck. Stride has been classed canonical on just that fact.

If MJK wasn't killed by someone using the ripper murders as a cover what are the chances of two killers with the same signature killing in such a small area...Very slim methinks.

[Sam Flynn]

A woman found with her throat cut would have been enough at that time to suggest that Jack had struck. Stride has been classed canonical on just that fact.

A very good point, CX.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

it looks like with the other victims, that they only had to be Female, he didn't give a damn what they looked like/age etc, but the last victim was different, she was very special in his mind, a symbol of something!

i'm trying to get right back to basics now and many things are starting to make sense, that didn't before..sometimes one cant see the wood for the trees!

MAK was probably THE CV.She seems to have links to at least 3 other CVs.
JTR had a daughter ~ MAK's age.Mary A. ....................?Really!

[FrankO]

... and a lot MORE organs in the case of Kelly - hence the more complete "de-flapping" of her abdomen than he was able to achieve in the time- and fence-constrained surroundings of the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Indeed, Gareth, indeed. Good point.

[perrymason]

Mike - I don't care what was "suggested" by whom at the time - how on earth can Dr Llywelyn's, or Bagster Phillips' c0ck-eyed opinions have anything to do with the identity of the killer? I'm looking at the evidence of each of the victims' wounds - NONE of which required professional skill - and ALL of which point to someone who cut women open in order to get his mitts on their organs and extract them.

I mean, this sort of behaviour isn't exactly commonplace, is it? How many men of that type do you think were wandering around the tiny district of Spitalfields in 1888 - or throughout the past 400 years, for that matter?

Sam,

On the first point, your opinion is that the killer showed no skill or knowledge, that is not shared by some men that actually examined Polly and Annie. Secondly, the women were opened so that abdominal organs could be taken, and thirdly, their murders in their entirety...capture to cutting, are very similar.

As to why this must be Jack... because the acts are so uncommon, or that skin flaps are a definitive sign of his work.....all I can say is that there was a known killer during that same period that took women apart, and with Marys arm basically separated from her body, her thigh stripped of matter, her completely empty body cavity....Id think she could have well been an incomplete Torso murder. Not only the torso was found during that time, a boiled arm was also found.

If Jack killed these 5, then someone or some 8-9 others attacked or killed the rest of the women during that period of 1888-1889, one of the a Torso maker, and that would include a murder that may well be the second copycat killer as a result of the Ripper crimes influence based on the press reports and street gossip....Alice McKenzie.

If Jack didnt kill Alice, someone copied his style. If Jack didnt kill Mary, the same holds true.

Best regards Sam

[Malcolm X]

If MJK was a copycat killing to be blamed on Jack, why would the killer go to such extremes?

A woman found with her throat cut would have been enough at that time to suggest that Jack had struck. Stride has been classed canonical on just that fact.

If MJK wasn't killed by someone using the ripper murders as a cover what are the chances of two killers with the same signature killing in such a small area...Very slim methinks.

and why would a Copycat kill a month later, more like within two weeks.
MARY is almost definitely a ripper victim...that's for sure.

[Malcolm X]

Sam,

.Id think she could have well been an incomplete Torso murder. Not only the torso was found during that time, a boiled arm was also found.



Best regards Sam

no a torso murder is arms/ legs/ heads cleanly cut off, but not the extensive torso mutilations of M.Kelly as well.

you've made a big mistake here

[perrymason]

... and a lot MORE organs in the case of Kelly - hence the more complete "de-flapping" of her abdomen than he was able to achieve in the time- and fence-constrained surroundings of the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Both you and Frank completely sidestep the critical issue.....as I said, it cannot be said that the skin flaps aided him in getting at what he takes, as it is clearly used for in Annies case......which is then a definitive issue in Marys case. Skin flaps aided getting into Annies abdomen to take abdominal organs. Skin flaps in Marys case were not needed to take her heart.

You cant even say credibly that he had any kinds of goals or objectives that the flaps would help facilitate. Anything that was under those flaps and inside Mary...he just places about and leaves behind, which would make the only discernible objective he might have doing that is to access and cut out abdominal organs to merely place around a corpse.....the flaps were not cut from her left breast.

Its not just you Sam, its everyone that thinks they can attribute Mary to Jack based on the physical cuts made in the room. They were with few exceptions, all things that had been written about long before Mary was killed.

How she was caught, how she was attacked, what hand is used to cut with, whether he was a known person to Mary....all those have far more relevance Ripper-wise than do cuts that were in papers and were therefore, public knowledge prior to her murder.

Its abundantly clear that people can and do misrepresent the details in kills to place blame on someone else. I submit if Jack didnt kill Alice, there is one glaring example. Marys cuts suggest someone that knew what the Ripper did....which could be any individual that read papers locally, or a new Ripper that is no longer interested in opening abdomens and taking organs from within that region or meeting his women outdoors, someone who now just wants to just cut and place biological materials.


Cheers Sam.

[perrymason]

no a torso murder is arms/ legs/ heads cleanly cut off, but not the extensive torso mutilations of M.Kelly as well.

you've made a big mistake here

I dont know what youre issues are to keep posting that Im wrong each post Mal, but youll note that I mentioned a severed boiled arm and that Marys arm was essentially severed as well. Incorrect it may be in your eyes, but thats not provably so. There was a man that kept complete Torso's for some time, and if not the same man, a man that experimented with severed limbs and boiled water.

Its clear that few people accept that there were a plethora of bad men available to do lots of awful things in that part of the city at that time......and for that matter, anywhere in the world, at any time in history.

You keep painting Jacks cutting as something impossible to imitate....when the evidence with Alice suggests the polar opposite is true.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Both you and Frank completely sidestep the critical issue.

I side-step nothing, Mike. I just cut to the chase.

Skin flaps in Marys case were not needed to take her heart.

They are, if you intend clearing out the abdominal organs before burrowing upwards to get at the heart - not that I'm suggesting he was necessarily "after" the heart in the first place. Even if he were, how else was he to do it? Saw through each of her ribs with his knife?

[FrankO]

Both you and Frank completely sidestep the critical issue..... Skin flaps in Marys case were not needed to take her heart.

I second what Gareth wrote, Mike. I'd say that cutting away the abdominal wall instead of just opening it with one cut gave him easier access to all the abdominal organs and, therefore, easier access to the heart as well. Regardless of whether he was after heart from the start or not. And regardless of whatever he did with the organs once he'd cut them out.

The best, Mike,
Frank

[perrymason]

I side-step nothing, Mike. I just cut to the chase.They are, if you intend clearing out the abdominal organs before burrowing upwards to get at the heart - not that I'm suggesting he was necessarily "after" the heart in the first place. Even if he were, how else was he to do it? Saw through each of her ribs with his knife?

The only thing that can be said about her heart is that he took it, the implication is that he wanted it. Since he took no other organ, that seems to be a fairly safe bet.

And skin flaps of her abdomen are in no way required to access her heart....as you suggested impishly, he could saw through her ribs to get it with his knife....and thats entirely possible, since there is evidence that knife can cut through bone encased in flesh.

The reason for the skin flaps isnt clear as it is with Annie...with her, it was to get access to abdominal organs that he then takes. With Mary, it could well be something he read the Ripper did....because in and of itself, it did not aid him getting at the organ that this killer chooses to covet.

Cheers Gareth.....Im on a break now, answering 3 people who disagree with you simultaneously is tiring.