the Rent arrears

[Jon Guy]

And I know I'll hate myself in the morning, but . . .
on the basis of what foundation evidence are we assessing whether Mary was even motivated by her arrears that night, or ever.. for that matter?Don.

Don

Well, there are two things we are certain that happened regarding her rent :

a) Barnett called Thurs evening to say he was sorry but he could give her no money.

b) Thomas Bowyer called Friday morning to collect rent.

[Supe]

Jon,

I quite agree with what you said and have never had any difficulty believing she was in arrears. I was simply questioning Michael's assertion that he--or any of us--can possibly assess Mary's motivation. As I said, motivation is an unward, private emotion not easily read even by interview and close observation.

Don.

[Jon Guy]

Allowing Kelly to stay might at least have allowed a certain amount of rent money to trickle in, even if it were only a shilling a week. Evicting her from the room, and facing the prospect of its being untenanted for months on end, would not have been a particularly smart move on McCarthy's part.

Census returns certainly suggest that not all the rooms would have been let at any given time, and that doesn't surprise me. This was a desperately poor part of town, and there were few people who'd have been in a position to stump up the 4s 6d rent in one lump. Especially, perhaps, during the autumn/winter when the local economy might well have been at a low ebb.

It's worth remembering that Kelly was not the only tenant to be in rental arrears, and that Miller's Court did not have a perpetual "No Vacancies" sign outside it.

Sam

Apologies !!!

Just been reading this thread through and I noticed I have virtually cribbed your answer. Apologies, I hadn`t seen your post, and my post was basically nicked from the latest Peter Ackroyd book on the East End.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
The rent debate is a intresting one, however one or two points need addressing,
Question.. It appears a fact, that at the same time Bowyer called on Kelly, Mrs McCarthy and Fionas grandfather were calling on residents in the court for rent, so why was Bowyer singled out for room 13?
It was mentioned in the press that Bowyer was sent to the room to see if kelly was there , as some residents were alarmed when they could not arouse Mary, and informed McCarthy.
The last point would therefore give an explanation for question one.
If the residents were truthful about their concern, then why was McCarthy so anxious to bring up the rent collecting point?
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

Apologies, I hadn`t seen your post, and my post was basically nicked from the latest Peter Ackroyd book on the East End.

I think I've asked this before, but which book? What is the title?

Best,
Chava

[Jon Guy]

I think I've asked this before, but which book? What is the title?
Best,
Chava

sorry, mate, thought I`d answered that one.

It is Peter Ackroyd : "Jack the Ripper and the East End"

[Sam Flynn]

Just been reading this thread through and I noticed I have virtually cribbed your answer.

No probs, Jon - we all read similar sources, so it's hardly surprising that our ideas coincide on occasion

[Chava]

Thanks, Jon!
Best,
Chava

[j.r-ahde]

Hello c.d!

Hi Jukka,

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Are you asking whether Mary was afraid to be on the street?

c.d.

Infact, that's practically what I meant; that she was afraid to return to the street!

All the best
Jukka

[ianincleveland]

This is what ive always thought did he send Bowyer there because he knew Mary was already dead s hed done it???.Really really dont trust Mccarthy in any of marys death myself,and he may have gone on to have a very normal life after but he wouldnt be the first killer to would he??

he could well have killed in a fit of lust or for some other reason then sent Bowyer round to make everything appear normal.For Mary to owe over 6 weeks rent in her position to me is dodgy,whether these arrears were built up over 6 weeks or longer.And i certainly dont believe mcCarthy was letting her stay there out the goodness of his heart.

[Chava]

This is what ive always thought did he send Bowyer there because he knew Mary was already dead s hed done it???.Really really dont trust Mccarthy in any of marys death myself,and he may have gone on to have a very normal life after but he wouldnt be the first killer to would he??

he could well have killed in a fit of lust or for some other reason then sent Bowyer round to make everything appear normal.For Mary to owe over 6 weeks rent in her position to me is dodgy,whether these arrears were built up over 6 weeks or longer.And i certainly dont believe mcCarthy was letting her stay there out the goodness of his heart.

Thanks, Ian. I have thought the same thing for years and years! If McCarthy was that interested in the rent, he could have walked out of his shop and turned left. It would have taken him all of 10 seconds to reach #13. But he sent Bowyer. Given that, and the fact that he wouldn't produce a key to open the door--even though I'll bet as landlord he had one--McCarthy will never be completely out of the frame for me. However he seemed to be a normal man leading a fairly normal life, albeit in the middle of a lot of craziness and nastiness. He's a slumlord, but so were many others.

McCarthy is the best candidate I have for the Kelly killing in terms of means, opportunity and (maybe) motive. If she had something on him and was using it to get herself a rent-free crib, I could see him wanting to kill her and maybe fake a Ripper killing. I'm still not entirely convinced that Kelly is in fact a Ripper victim, and I'll be on the fence about this forever, I think!

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

Thanks, IanIf McCarthy was that interested in the rent, he could have walked out of his shop and turned left. It would have taken him all of 10 seconds to reach #13. But he sent Bowyer.

...because Bowyer was one of his employees, and McCarthy had a shop and a burgeoning housing "empire" to run, perhaps?

Why must we go creating new "mysteries" when so many already exist?

[c.d.]

Amen to that, Sam.

c.d.

[Chava]

Hi Chava,...because Bowyer was one of his employees, and McCarthy had a shop and a burgeoning housing "empire" to run, perhaps?

Why must we go creating new "mysteries" when so many already exist?

Gee, I dunno, Gareth. Maybe because we're interested in all facets of the case. You know, because we might have overlooked something while we were concentrating on all the 'mysteries' that already exist. If you have evidence that rules Mccarthy out completely, like perhaps an account somewhere that tells us exactly what McCarthy did that night and provides the names of witnesses, then please let us know so we can rule him out. If you can't, he remains on the suspect list, along with everyone else. More so than most, as Lizzie Prater's evidence puts him on the spot in the small hours of the night Kelly was murdered.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Ian,

For Mary to owe over 6 weeks rent in her position to me is dodgy,whether these arrears were built up over 6 weeks or longer.And i certainly dont believe mcCarthy was letting her stay there out the goodness of his heart.

From McCarthy's position, Kelly was but one out of dozens - perhaps scores - of tenants on his books. We don't even know if she was the worst debtor on his roll, which covered more East End properties than Miller's Court, don't forget.

It's also worth recalling that, whether Kelly owed 6 weeks' rent or not, the "Autumn of Terror" had been in full swing for almost twice that time, which is likely to have had some deleterious effect on the local economy - which was hardly of the "boom" type at the best of times.

On a more speculative note, the Ripper's presence on the streets might well have caused some landlords to have been a little more tolerant of their struggling tenants, particularly those in the more vulnerable occupations.