the Rent arrears

[Chava]

(This is not for this thread but) Gareth I don't believe that cry of 'murder' had anything to do with the Kelly killing.

Happy New Year! And congrats on the 3000.
The best,
Chava

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Chava, for the record neither do I, believing as I do that the cry heard was nothing more then what Mrs Prater in oral tones described at the inquest as in 'Awakening with a nightmare'.
In certainly fits Lotties interpretation to Kit Watkins some three years after, in which she described Mjk has having had a nasty nightmare that she was being ' murdered'.sometime after the double event.
So I would consider that topic being likely to produce a cry of 'Oh Murder' if a reoccurence of that dream happened during the mid hours of that fateful night/morning.
I have brought this explanation up many times over the years, and consider it of importance.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

(This is not for this thread but) Gareth I don't believe that cry of 'murder' had anything to do with the Kelly killing.

We have to account for it, though - in fact, we have to account for the remaining hours from then until the discovery of the body, if truth be told. The 10 minutes' worth of "strobe lighting", when seen against a background of a whole ten hours offers paltry illumination indeed. Anyone who suggests otherwise would have to have made up their minds based on the most patchy witness testimony imaginable, no doubt larded generously with idées fixes about when and how she died.

[Jon Guy]

She probably encountered and serviced her clients on the streets, either because she didn't like grotty clients sharing her bed with her, or because she reasoned - quite logically - that she'd get through more clients quicker that way and so increase her earnings.

Hello Ben

I think it was Julia Venturney who said that Kelly plyed her trade in the Leman St area, whilst Dew said Aldgate. Both vicinities, I would guess, too far away from Millers Court to walk her clients back, for the reasons you give, and I agree.

Also, Barnett was unhappy with Mary letting her friends stay at number 13, and as he co-habited with her all her stay at Millers Court, apart from the last ten days, it is unlikely Barnett would allow Mary`s clients use his bed.

But, Mary may have changed her habits after Barnett split, and as we are told that she followed the murders in the paper may have thought her room would have been safer.

[perrymason]

My timeline started at 1AM, Chava. There were a whole 3 hours (give or take) to account for between that and the cry of "Murder!", during which time we only have two people flitting into the Court. Only two witnesses, who had a cat in Hell's chance of noticing anything, during that whole time-span.

This discussion is for another thread, however.

Actually Sam, if youd like to start before her lights are noticed as out and before the singing has stopped, then 3 witnesses are in play, as Elizabeth hasnt even entered the archway and is still quite capable of seeing anyone leave the courtyard....as she is 1/2 hour later when she almost enters it. And that leaves Mary Ann still coming and going...after going and coming in after she first saw Mary and Blotchy, ... finishing at 3:00am,... Sarah entering the courtyard in the interim, and as stated perhaps 25 continuous minutes or more to start the whole train off at 1:00am, when Elizabeth could have seen anyone coming or going from that courtyard, as she was either outside it or inside the archway.

To my eye thats three courtyard witnesses who have statements of relevance from 11:45pm until at least 3:00am, and one of them passes Mary or her room on 5 separate occassions...when she arrives in at 11:45, when she leaves at midnight, when she returns at 1:00, when she leaves again before 1:30 and when she returns at around 3. Thats 5 possible sighting times for her, at least 25 straight minutes of opportunity to see anything before 1:30 by Liz, and perhaps an overall 5 minutes or less for Sarah to have been able to see anything originating from the courtyard. Sarah remains awake off and on in a chair for a while, Mary Ann doesnt sleep well, and Elizabeth and Sarah hear the same cry at the same time after 3:00am.

There are samplings from that courtyard as to Mary and her room for over 3 hours, and almost 2 consecutive hours after which the room was said by 2 witnesses to be dark and quiet, there has been nothing that has changed in the court or the status of her room.

I believe that demonstrates that although Sam and Don suggest that there was hardly any time that people could see anything to use to make an evaluation, there was in fact 7 specific times in just over three hours that we get reports of, another specific time is added with the "cry", all with varying lengths of time in which the witness would be able to note activity from that room or court...or note Mary being seen outside it.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Jon,

I think it was Julia Venturney who said that Kelly plyed her trade in the Leman St area, whilst Dew said Aldgate.

Dew, in his autobiography, actually says:

"Often I had seen [Kelly] parading along Commercial Street, between Flower-and-Dean Street and Aldgate, or along Whitechapel Road. She was usually in the company of two or three of her kind."

It was Maria Harvey who mentioned Leman-street, Pall Mall Gazette, 10th November 1888, and in the following context:

"A young woman named Harvey, who had slept with the deceased on several recent occasions, has made a statement to the effect that [...] the deceased [...] visited her in New-court on Thursday night. After drinking together they parted at half-past seven o'clock, Kelly going off in the direction of Leman-street, which she was in the habit of frequenting."

Don't forget that it was on Commercial Street that Barnett picked up with Kelly in the first place, and Leman Street was barely a 5 minute walk from Dorset Street itself.

[Sam Flynn]

There are samplings from that courtyard as to Mary and her room for over 3 hours...

...comprising mere minutes when precisely TWO "samplers" drifted in and out of the Court, and we have no reason to suppose that they'd have been paying especial attention to Kelly's movements while they did so. Had Kelly not been singing, we'd have had even fewer witnesses to her whereabouts.

Why are these simple truths so difficult to accept?

[Ben]

I think it was Julia Venturney who said that Kelly plyed her trade in the Leman St area, whilst Dew said Aldgate. Both vicinities, I would guess, too far away from Millers Court to walk her clients back, for the reasons you give, and I agree.

A very sound observation there, Jon, and one I hadn't considered.

All the best,
Ben

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,Dew, in his autobiography, actually says:

"Often I had seen [Kelly] parading along Commercial Street, between Flower-and-Dean Street and Aldgate, or along Whitechapel Road. She was usually in the company of two or three of her kind."

It was Maria Harvey who mentioned Leman-street, Pall Mall Gazette, 10th November 1888, and in the following context:

"A young woman named Harvey, who had slept with the deceased on several recent occasions, has made a statement to the effect that [...] the deceased [...] visited her in New-court on Thursday night. After drinking together they parted at half-past seven o'clock, Kelly going off in the direction of Leman-street, which she was in the habit of frequenting."

Don't forget that it was on Commercial Street that Barnett picked up with Kelly in the first place, and Leman Street was barely a 5 minute walk from Dorset Street itself.

Hello Sam
Thanks for the correction, I did mean Harvey, and thanks for confirming the Dew comments. Of course, to get to Aldgate she would have had to walk down Commercial St, and the Whitechapel Road from Flowery Dean. She could have cut through the backsies but that would be avoiding potential custom.

Coincidentally,as you say, she picked up with Barnett on Commercial St when she was staying at a L.H. in Thrawl St. We`re getting back to our "brothels in Spitalfields" discussion !!

5 minutes walk is a long way when she could service elsewhere, as we know many other girls did.

[c.d.]

A good observation but it also assumes that she always worked in those areas and never deviated from her routine. Still there exists other possibilities such as her meeting clients in a nearby pub or meeting a regular customer on her way to those areas and bringing him back to her room.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

A good observation but it also assumes that she always worked in those areas and never deviated from her routine. Still there exists other possibilities such as her meeting clients in a nearby pub or meeting a regular customer on her way to those areas and bringing him back to her room.
c.d.

True, but Leman St, Whitechapel Road and Aldgate were the parts of Whitechapel where the money was to be found. Kate Eddowes seems to have gravitated to that area on her fateful day too.

Personally, I believe the rent arrears are down to Barnett losing his job.
As the couple split a week or so before her death perhaps it was McCarthy`s chasing of arrears that appeared to make Mary drink more and worry, as she seemed to be doing. Her murder was discovered when someone was chasing up the rent.

[Sam Flynn]

Leman St, Whitechapel Road and Aldgate were the parts of Whitechapel where the money was to be found. Kate Eddowes seems to have gravitated to that area on her fateful day too.

...and what if Kelly were gravitating to Leman Street on the night of her death, and met a prospective client on the way? One doesn't need Hutchinson's story to realise that she'd have walked down Commercial Street in order to get there, and - given her arrears situation - she was hardly likely to turn down an opportunity to score a trick if she encountered a punter almost on her own doorstep.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

And there is also the possibility that Mary's murderer was on her doorstep scoping out Miller's Court when he is seen by Mary through her window or while standing under the arch. It would be quite convenient for her to invite him in.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Quite possible, CD, although it would require a greater coincidence for both protagonists to have been in the right place at the right time, than it would have been for them to spot each other as they traversed a (comparatively) well-lit thoroughfare like Commercial Street.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

I'm not saying that Mary's killer (whom I believe to be Jack) was stalking her. He may have simply decided that he wanted to kill indoors. He was aware that a number of prostitutes lived in Millers Court and had their own rooms. It could have been any of Mary's neighbors that encountered him but it turned out to be Mary. She was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

c.d.