the Rent arrears

[Chava]

I agree with Michael--gosh we sound like the Toronto Twins don't we

Cox's position has never been questioned, whereas we know that Hutchinson's evidence was discounted fairly quickly after it was volunteered. I wish there was some documentation as to why this happened. Because if he'd fetched up at the nick the night after saying 'sorry about that! I was pissed and thought it would be a good joke', the whole statement would have been trashed instead of hanging around in the files to annoy and divide us!

Still, we do know that very shortly after the Mr A description was circulated, the cops were back looking for Blotchy Face. So something must have tipped them off. Cox, however, has been unassailable for 120 years...

[Sam Flynn]

Guys - a cri de coeur...

...this could quickly turn into an infestation by "Kudzu she-stayed-in-after-one-o-clockii". Please, please, let's not go there

[Chava]

...this could quickly turn into an infestation by "Kudzu she-stayed-in-after-one-o-clockii". Please, please, let's not go there

God, you're right! I am so avoiding this discussion now! Sorry! And that's from someone who actually introduced the term 'kudzu' to this board!

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi, I once saw a James Brown concert where they turned on the strobe light. It was mesmerizing.

I forgot what the thread was about-

Was mcCarthy ,probably unbeknown to his wife,pimping his prostitute tenants??? And in reality earning far more off of them than their rent money???

Could he have killed her in a row over the rent??? or a row over "pimping money"???.then sent his rent collector round for some arrears to discover Mary.

Anyone else any thoughts on this???

Yes it is a possiblity.

Don, that was an interesting essay you wrote and linked to on page 2 of this thread. That #13 was being used as a "hot pillow motel."

Roy

[perrymason]

Its good that you reposted the questions that began this thread Roy.

My answer would be probably not, due to the fact that any darkly tinted "McCarthy's Rents" theories remain unsubstantiated, and the fact that until around 8 days earlier, a man lived there too. Any arrangement like that would have met with Barnetts opposition I would think, as he is on record as staing that he wanted her to stop working on the streets. I dont think the literal "street" is the issue here, that might be solvable by her entertaining in the room. He didnt like her whoring.

If there is proof that McCarthy had a similar type relationship with any member of that house or court at that time, Ive not read or heard about it.

Best regards Roy.

[Supe]

Roy,

Don, that was an interesting essay you wrote and linked to on page 2 of this thread. That #13 was being used as a "hot pillow motel."

Thank you for the kind comments. And thnks, as well, for reposting what started this thread because Ian's use of the word "pimp" well illustrates what I talked about the modernist fallacy. People frequently throw around the word pimp in relation to the victims and there friends. A pimp above all procures and protects and this poor women had neither benefit. No more than there were fur-lined pink hansoms in which these supposed pimps toured the East End.

Rgar is why I have always complained when people have suggested I called McCarthy a pimp in my article. In the first place, McCarthy was far too slick
to leave himself open to a charge of "immoral earnings." Rather, I suggested that, he came to an arrangement with Kelly. And that is why I also suspect that McCarthy was quickly in and out of No, 13 after he sent Bowyer for the police.

But at least I freely admit it is all speculation.

Don.

[Chava]

Good article, Don. But I do have a couple of questions. You say that Kelly had some customers that night, but we don't know for sure that she had any, unless you count Blotchy Face, and we don't have any hard-and-fast evidence to suggest he did anything other than walk her home and listen to a dreadful song or two. Earlier in the evening she was seen drinking. No one came forward to say they saw her soliciting. No one had any kind of conversation with her along the lines of Nichols' 'I've had my doss-money 3 times tonight and drank it...'

I do believe that the tarts in Millers Court were tipping up to McCarthy, and I agree that Prater was likely doing this when she said she was 'talking to him' in the small hours. But we're still back to the lack of evidence that Kelly was tricking on a regular basis.

Like you, I have some suspicions. Although my suspicions are somewhat different. I think she was letting her bed out to Harvey and Venturney whenever they needed it, and was living off a proportion of their earnings. I suspect McCarthy knew about this and didn't appreciate it. I suspect that he demanded and got a share of her money. I agree that sending his man Bowyer to walk three feet or so is suspicious, and I agree that the timeline suggests some kind of dirty work at the crossroads. For a long time I thought this might mean that McCarthy was the Ripper. I still don't discount that. Something was going on between him and Kelly. But I don't think we'll ever find out exactly what that something was!

[perrymason]

I hadnt noticed the mention of a link to the article, I will read that in a bit, but Im glad you stated it was speculative Don. I personally believe that McCarthy builds a bit of a slum landlord empire in those years, and therefore his attention would be on his own businesses, not the business of his street whore tenants.

The only mention that I am aware of in connection with his having any hands on role in the rent collection department is his sending Bowyer to collect some if possible. As a landlord he would know who was in arrears and who was current if he was on his game, but involving himself in how the deficits were covered, or"managing" a little courtyard of whores, seems to me to be something he doesnt need to do to become wealtheir. He found that avenue, with depressed pricing in the East End on real estate.

Off to Mama and Papa's house for a visit,...Ill read the article when Im back....ciao for the moment.

Best regards Don, all.

[Sam Flynn]

but involving himself in how the deficits were covered, or"managing" a little courtyard of whores, seems to me to be something he doesnt need to do.

Indeed so, Mike - and, as far as we know, Miller's Court wasn't solely tenanted by prostitutes. In fact, they would appear to have been in the distinct minority, even if one stretches the definition of "prostitute" to include the "unfortunates" on McCarthy's books.

[claire]

Which might imply that, if any pimping--such as it was--was going on, it might have been by Bowyer and his cronies, rather than McCarthy.

[ianincleveland]

Ive a feeling that Mary did very little prostitution,if she was very desperate then perhaps but being somewhat good looking as weve been led to believe she got men buying her drinks and "looking after" her.She probably well knew how to use her feminine charms as well.

However im still deeply suspicous of Mccarthy.Mainly because of these arrears,son was Kelly paying them off by lying on her back and Mccarthy didnt want his wife knowing???

Or did he go and ask for his rent and in a foul temper butcher MJK.or was he somewhat taken with her,allowed her to owe all this rent,and when she refused his adevances did he snap???

Because lets face it its more likely than not after kellys murder JTR disappeared forever.so was MJK part of the series or murdered by a jealous/upset McCarthy???

Bowyer surely wouldnt have been sent until the Sunday morning for the simple reason MJK,if indeed she WAS turning tricks on a regular basis,would surely have made more money on the day of the Lord Mayors show than on the night before.Thats the bit that makes me wonder if mccarthy sent Bowyer to kellys room knowing kelly was dead already and by sending Bowyer there would tend to deflect suspicion away from himself as hed sent someone round there believing her to be alive while in fact knowing very different.hed be far from the last or first murderer to do something similar.

anyhow thank you everyone for contributing so much interesting stuff to my very first casebook thread

[Supe]

How many times do I have to say there was no "pimping" going on--certainly not in the modern sense of the word? And if you want to discuss the article, at least read it first like Roy and Chava. And of course there isn't anything hard and fast written about what might have gone on, else we wouldn't be discussing it now.

As for Mary not having been on the game that night, nothing says that Mary (or any other prostitute) had to earn her fee with intercourse. Then as now, prostitutes will tell you that some punters just want to talk, or maybe be sung to. For all we know, Blotchy (if, indeed, he existed) was just feeling maudlin and for a fee wanted to hear some songs that reminded him of mother. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosopy . . . and so on.

As Sam has pointed out, the data we have on the night in question is too limited for anything but speculation. But to suggest that Mary was not engaging in prostitution seems wishful thinking.

Finally, Michael, yes my artricle deals in speculation just like your notion that Mary and Maria spent their afternoon washing clothes using the tea kettle with the broken spout. Except that despite all the evidence to the contrary you continue to espouse that idea as gospel, not speculation,

Don.

[richardnunweek]

Hello all,
A Intresting thread this.
Take the rent issue, McCarthy gave an account of Marys first appearance at Millers court, when he is reported as saying 'She came to live with a man called Kelly a porter, as as she often posed as his wife became known not only as Mary Jane[ which is the name she was known as, by the women of the court] but as Mary Jane Kelly.
Clearly that implies, that she moved in with the man who McCarthy knew as kelly, and proberly believed that to be on the morning of the murder, when that statement was issued.
It obviously transpired after, that his true name was Barnett, but as aliases were common place, nothing out of the ordinary.
That being the case, I would consider it highly likely, that the initial tenent of room 13, as in the man named Kelly, and that person having a good job would have their name on the rent book [ so to speak], for it surely would be not advantageous to enter the female resident when not in employment.
That being the case any rent arrears owed to the landlord would have been in the hands of Barnett to settle, and the only reason McCarthy would have allowed Mjk to carry on residing there was out of pity, and mayby promises of settling up A.S.A.P.
As for the question of events that night, how about if we take the witnesses as all telling the truth?
Mary Kelly is in her room with a female friend when Barnett calls on her, and informs her of his lack of finance, he then leaves, and Mary then decides to chance her luck, and dresses up wearing her jacket and bonnet, she then speaks to Mrs Prater at the court entrance around 9am, and she goes to the pub, but for some reason between then and midnight she returns back to her room and changes into the attire that Cox saw her in when she is accompanied by BF.
She is seen again by Hutchinson around 2am, this time with Astracan, so we must assume that BF has left the scene.
Mrs P, along with others heard what they believed to have been a cry from the court around 4am, Mrs Prater interprets it as 'Awakening from a nightmare'
Mary Kelly is seen again by Mrs Maxwell , and allegedly by maurice Lewis, between 8am-845, the former seeing Mary talking to a man. dressed like a market Porter.
If this is the case, then that man is the last person seen with Mary Kelly, and proberly was her killer.
We have all assumed that the man refered to as Joe, was her ex Joseph Fleming, but it is also possible is it not?, that the man that ill-used her was the man seen by Maxwell dressed as a porter/costermonger, and there are three Josephs involved here, not the two that have always been in the mix.
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

Yes, but we are still back to the question of whether Kelly was a street prostitute or not. I always assumed she was. And it was only when reading this thread that it dawned on me that we really have no evidence whatsoever for her streetwalking. Barnett's account describes her having 'gone to the bad' in Cardiff, and having worked at a West End brothel and Carthy's house which he suggests is a 'bad house' so she was working again indoors in a brothel. He mentions that she wouldn't have gone 'wrong again' if he had stayed with her. So I assume she wasn't hooking when they lived together. He maintains that it was her relationship with other tarts that made her turn to prostitution. But hang on before we say 'Aha! There's your proof!' When Barnett speaks of Kelly as a prostitute, he describes her working in a brothel. We don't hear from him any suggestion that she walked the streets before she met him and I see no reason to assume she walked the streets after the couple broke up. If Kelly wanted to 'go gay' I suspect she would head for the nearest reasonable brothel where her needs would be taken care of and where there would be a measure of safety. She was never a street whore before, so why would she start now?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Chava,
No evidence of her streetwalking,not entirely certain there.
Albeit oral history, but several titbits spring to mind.
Inspector Dew' I often saw her parading with'Women of her class'
Mrs Coxs neice' She often would go back to her room with a bottle of gin under her arm with someone , mostly sailors'
Mrs Prater[ who classed herself as a unfortunate] 'We left each other at the passage to see if we had any luck...
Hutchinsons statement ''She [ kelly] said ''all right my dear, you will be comftable'
Not of course proof of soliciting, but implies.
My problem is, if Lottie of Millers court is right , Kelly appeared to have been extremely frightened to walk the streets alone during that autumn, she liked company, not only outside, but in her room at nights, [note the sleepovers] because of this i find it hard to accept her letting a stranger accompany her back to her room , unless she knew him, or had some added protection, such as a minder, unless my hunch is right and Maxwells market porter was the killer, and Mjk was put off guard by the hour of day.
Regards Richard.