the Rent arrears

[claire]

Well, to be precise, the fact of the matter is that McCarthy stated that she was in arrears...Still, I think it's perfectly possible that she was in arrears, and to the sum stated; I don't know whether McCarthy had an arrangement with his gaming tenants, but I do suspect that he was willing to take women working as prostitutes into his rental properties because he knew that, come hell or high water, there was always a market for their wares. They weren't about to be fired and death alone stopped them from being able to work. It therefore was easier to lean on this sort of tenant to go out and at least make a bit of the rent. Does that make McCarthy a pimp? Well, technically it would, but I'm sure the police could live with that sort of low-level activity.

I think it was Sam who pointed out that the rooms would not have been easy to rent out, so there was little point in evicting one woman only to replace her with another whose payment schedule would most likely be just as erratic (given the propensity of slum tenants to accrue debt). Too, it's not impossible that McCarthy's attention to MJK would have been less than has been assumed: she was just someone else among the legions of his tenants who owed rent, and required the occasional visit from one of his 'employees.'

[Chava]

Many people, including Fiona Rule in her excellent book about Dorset St, suggest that McCarthy was letting the rent run up because he wanted to turn Kelly out as a prostitute working for him. She uses the evidence that Lizzie Prater talked to him that night before turning in to suggest that she was in fact handing over his share of money she'd earned. My problem with this is very simple: if that was the case, why send Bowyer over there to get what rent he could? Although, that having been said, It's possible that the 'try and get some rent from the Kelly woman' was in fact 'she didn't tip up last night so find out what the hell is going on!'.

Something else occurs to me, though, about Kelly's tenantship of 13 Millers Court. Barnett says that she was friendly with prostitutes and had them to stay in her room. I wonder if in fact Kelly was allowing her room to be used for what used to be known as 'immoral purposes' by other prostitutes. Perhaps what was really going on was that Maria Harvey, Julia Venturney etc paid Kelly money to be allowed to take tricks back to her room since they may not have had a place of their own. This is just a possibility in a sea of possibilities, and no one makes reference to it in the contemporary evidence. But then, of course, it wouldn't have been in their best interests to do so. McCarthy could have been done for allowing a disorderly house among his rents. Cox rented her room from McCarthy and so would have kept her mouth shut etc etc etc.

Kelly doesn't sound to me like a committed prostitute. She seems to have spent her last evening getting hammered rather than working. And the man she goes up the court with just before midnight doesn't sound like a trick either. Unless his particular fantasy was to sit for ages listening to cheap songs belted out by a drunken woman. That might also be the reason for the 'missing' key. The key is 'missing' to allow other women to use the room. A small but useful source of income for Mary, who then is spared the tedium of walking the streets herself.

[Howard Brown]

Perhaps what was really going on was that Maria Harvey, Julia Venturney etc paid Kelly money to be allowed to take tricks back to her room since they may not have had a place of their own.

Glad you stated what I've been neglecting to mention elsewhere about that little set up. Good thinking,Chava. Funny to think of MJK being an erzatz pimp...but hey,who knows,right?

[perrymason]

In case the mention of McCarthy citing the arrears was for me Claire, I never suggested otherwise, just that it was not a problem that had reached any boiling point at all.

I know people like to imagine this little courtyard as a private whore haven run by either McCarthy, or in the latest suggestion, perhaps MJK leased her room hourly to other women who wanted a room to do their work in.

I dont believe there was extra money coming from an East End trick for prostitutes to use as a room rental, and the facts are that the the vast majority of these "unfortunates" didnt operate in that fashion anyway as they had no room of their own. And most of the clients are drunk and poor, who might be spending the food money...Im fairly sure they wouldnt want to waste a penny on something so "posh" as room when they could, and often did, get quick service from women outdoors cheaply.

It seems to me that very few people understand that street whores are actually people also...people who may not want to share the only space they are fortunate enough to have with dirty, smelly dockers, and who might only have a single set of sheets they wouldnt want a friend and her client "soiling". Im often amazed at the amount of people who want to see Kelly revelling in her whore life, and making her "home" sanctuary a brothel with a revolving door,...instead of the notion that perhaps she despised the work and lifestyle....as comments to a friend of hers indicates....and that she might treasure a place that her work doesnt follow her to. The only "work" that she did that day in that room may be laundry with Maria Harvey, hardly a die hard prostitute sub letting her room to a whore.

The arrears represent her youthful irresponsibility, but they also suggest that she was not "working" often enough.

Best regards all.

[claire]

In case the mention of McCarthy citing the arrears was for me Claire, I never suggested otherwise, just that it was not a problem that had reached any boiling point at all.

No, it was a follow-on rephrase of Sam's statement beforehand...

And I think your suggestion is absolutely plausible: I am quite sure that MJK would have sheltered friends from the weather and other environmental unpleasantries, particularly given the climate of fear at the time. I think you make a fine point: we really do need to distinguish between the idea of committed, professional prostitutes and women who occasionally turned to the game for some extra money. I think MJK's life, as we might understand it (living with partners, for example) speaks of someone who was not a professional, full-time prostitute. That said, other accounts (the West End gay-house, as one example) suggest that that had been her life, at least at some point.

But now I am going to get into trouble with Sam for drifting off-topic To conclude, then, I'll just say that, however regular MJK's working as a prostitute was, I think it would beggar belief for McCarthy not to have known her various sources of income, and to that extent, I'd suspect she was as good a rent bet as any, in his mind, if indeed he distinguished her from the body of his other tenants.

[perrymason]

.... To conclude, then, I'll just say that, however regular MJK's working as a prostitute was, I think it would beggar belief for McCarthy not to have known her various sources of income, and to that extent, I'd suspect she was as good a rent bet as any, in his mind, if indeed he distinguished her from the body of his other tenants.

I think thats fine rationalization, and sensible way for a slumlord to view her potential to catch up at some point. I think the contrast is then very clear....when we hear that Mary Ann Cox is described as a "wretched looking woman", (Im sure unfairly), and she had to go back out in the rain several times to find a client...which it appears she didnt. She HAD to go out, no matter what the conditions, because her most marketable years were behind her, whereas Mary was in her prime,... at the time of her death.

Ive said it before, but Im still not sure whether she would have been better off growing older... and perhaps ending up like Mary Ann. A fast savage end....or one that slowly takes all joy and happiness from you and returns to you starvation, degradation and fear. Maybe Im just being pessimistic, maybe she might have found a way out and to live the normal life she craved. I prefer to imagine her as happy...singing.

Cheers Claire.

[ianincleveland]

In case the mention of McCarthy citing the arrears was for me Claire, I never suggested otherwise, just that it was not a problem that had reached any boiling point at all.

I know people like to imagine this little courtyard as a private whore haven run by either McCarthy, or in the latest suggestion, perhaps MJK leased her room hourly to other women who wanted a room to do their work in.

I dont believe there was extra money coming from an East End trick for prostitutes to use as a room rental, and the facts are that the the vast majority of these "unfortunates" didnt operate in that fashion anyway as they had no room of their own. And most of the clients are drunk and poor, who might be spending the food money...Im fairly sure they wouldnt want to waste a penny on something so "posh" as room when they could, and often did, get quick service from women outdoors cheaply.

It seems to me that very few people understand that street whores are actually people also...people who may not want to share the only space they are fortunate enough to have with dirty, smelly dockers, and who might only have a single set of sheets they wouldnt want a friend and her client "soiling". Im often amazed at the amount of people who want to see Kelly revelling in her whore life, and making her "home" sanctuary a brothel with a revolving door,...instead of the notion that perhaps she despised the work and lifestyle....as comments to a friend of hers indicates....and that she might treasure a place that her work doesnt follow her to. The only "work" that she did that day in that room may be laundry with Maria Harvey, hardly a die hard prostitute sub letting her room to a whore.

The arrears represent her youthful irresponsibility, but they also suggest that she was not "working" often enough.

Best regards all.

Im not of the opinion Kelly leased her room to other prostitutes either.How about if shed been at home safe she wouldnt want some other prostitute crashing round with some client or other.Most street prostitutes indeed NEVER entertain their clients in their own homes,or even generally give out a home address.

Im still however very suspicous of McCarthy,and would be amazed if he didnt know that Kelly and many of his other tenants were at very least part time prostitutes.Obviously if he did kill MJK either in a row over the rent or because he was somehow sexually fixated with her it would almost certainly mean she wasnt a victim of JTR.Im not seriously promoting McCarthy as JTR,but its not beyond impossibility he killed Mary.

He may have lived a long and happy life after the event,he certainly wouldnt be the last murderer to have lived a seemingly happy life.Maybe kelly knew something about Mc Carthy hed rather didnt get out to the wider world/his wife perhaps.This could also explain why she had the large rent arrears which from the posts of those more knowlegable than myself on JTR etc do not seem to have worried Mc Carthy.The 29s was in fact around 7 weeks complete rent.This is on top of MJK having to find the normal weekly rent.Even at a shilling a week thats over 6 months to pay it off.Ive my doubts McCarthy couldnt have got himself a new tenant rather than allow this state of affairs.At the time the area was swarming with Polish and Russian Jews just arrived in England.Im sure Mc Carthy could have found himself a tenant if hed really wanted to.

sending Bowyer round to try and get Kellys rent could have been a ruse as well.After all then someone else discovers the body.Did Bowyer frequently visit MJK and any other tenants regualrly in arrears???.I would have thought the ideal day to visit MJK if theyd actually really wanted money out of her would have been the Sunday which after Mayors show day might have left Kelly with money to pay one way and another

[CitizenX]

In the inquest McCarthy doesn't mention the last time he saw Mary. He does however tell the newspapers that Mary was seen in the Britannia (i think) with a young man with a moustache. It's not clear though if he actually saw her himself or is just passing on tittle tattle he has heard. If he had seen her that night maybe he thought it was worth sending Bowyer round that morning.

Kevin

[caz]

In this particular matter there is no credible evidence anywhere that Mary went out after her room went dark around 1:30am, nor is there a credible reason she would have, having her needs for the night taken care of and besides, theres nowhere to spend money thats open.

Based on the evidence, we cannot conclude that Mary Kelly had a need to go out and work.

...there is no evidence that Mary had any eviction fears, warnings, or immediate needs that required money that night. In fact it appears she was at home, perhaps in bed relatively early for a street whore, and looking forward to Mayors Day.

Hi Perry, All,

Based on the evidence, Bowyer was not sent round to Mary’s room expecting to find her without a penny piece towards her back rent and without the bodily bits to make one.

The simplest way to read the evidence is that McCarthy had reason to believe that if Bowyer caught Mary early enough, before she could spend all she had on breakfast and the Lord Mayor’s Show, there would be something to collect.

What needs explaining is why Mary had nothing left to give. Her immediate physical needs may have been taken care of by the time Blotchy left (permanently perhaps?), but McCarthy’s monetary expectations were doomed never to be met.

So when did Mary last have a penny to her name, how did she come by it and how did she end up not worth a brass farthing, just when her landlord was evidently expecting her to have done something very recently for the rent?

If only we knew of someone in 1888 who was so heartless that he would leave unfortunates broke, broken and with bits missing?

Must go now - Christmas Eve is calling.

Love,

Caz
X

[Chava]

Most street prostitutes indeed NEVER entertain their clients in their own homes,or even generally give out a home address.

No, they don't. I don't know why this never occurred to me before. But if Kelly was lending her room out to Venturney, Harvey etc, perhaps her killer was on the lookout for one of them. And if Kelly was turning tricks herself, why did she bring Blotchy-Face or (if you believe Kudzu) Mr A to her home?

I'm pretty certain she didn't view B-F as a trick. If she did, she would have forgone her song and taken care of business. So, if she wasn't out tricking at midnight, why did she go out tricking at 2.00 am? It's possible that her landlord looked in on her for a word before closing his shop. But if that was the case, why didn't he say something? He wasn't a suspect.

[Chava]

On sober reflection, I wonder if Kelly did take care of business somewhere between 12.00 and 1.00 am. I doubt she would have kept on singing for more than an hour, so it's likely she shut up and dealt with B-F at some point during that time. He left. Then she commenced singing to herself again, and this took place at the time Cox was returning for a warm-up. But even if this was the case, it's not standard street-walker behaviour. Cox goes in and out of her room throughout that night. She's clearly working. Kelly apparently takes a punter into her own home. Spends time entertaining him with song before getting down to business. Sticks around for a while. Then decides to go back on the street in the small hours at a time when things start winding down and there are fewer punters around. The whole thing just doesn't make any kind of sense. The more I think about it, the more I distrust Kudzu's evidence.

[perrymason]

Hi All,

Merry Ho Ho...hope everyone had a great Christmas.

On the nature of the relationship that Marys has with Blotchy Face, the only evidence we have suggests that she "entertained" him in her room. I doubt whether a prostitute who was accustomed to bringing men to her room would spend much of the closed door time together singing to him...I dont see that as being condusive to their goals, which were multiple tricks to cover lodgings and food and drink. You buy a whores time, as much as anything else, and poor men cant buy much of anything.

I think this is reasonable, ...that Mary was bought drinks by this chap, and he offered to walk her home, perhaps learning that evening that she now lived alone. Maybe he invoked Jacks name to get her wanting to accept his offer as security. He was expecting a thank you in flesh....and he got one as a gift of friendship instead.

The real question about him should be..when did he leave?

Cheers all.

[Chava]

Hi Michael,

I think your idea is very plausible. But it underlines the fact that earlier in the evening--right up until midnight--Kelly is not working as a prostitute. She's drinking in pubs and maybe she's picked up someone who will pay for her drinks and 'walk her home'. But that's not what a hooker who needs rent money does. That kind of woman works steadily all evening, just as Mary Ann Cox did.

So if she's 'off-duty' at peak business time, why does she go back on duty in the small hours when she can expect to have difficulty finding customers?

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

I think your idea is very plausible. But it underlines the fact that earlier in the evening--right up until midnight--Kelly is not working as a prostitute. She's drinking in pubs and maybe she's picked up someone who will pay for her drinks and 'walk her home'. But that's not what a hooker who needs rent money does. That kind of woman works steadily all evening, just as Mary Ann Cox did.

So if she's 'off-duty' at peak business time, why does she go back on duty in the small hours when she can expect to have difficulty finding customers?

Hey Chava,

And therein lies the crux..., if the encounter with Blotchy Face is as I suggest, and she was "off" that night at least until Blotchy leaves,.... whats the compelling motivator for her to go back out?

I believe that based on what we can glean, (such as Mary is the type of tenant that runs arrears in the first place, and that Mary didnt need to pay for her bed each individual night, and that Mary was found to have food in her stomach, and was said to be very intoxicated when arriving home, and that the rain was coming down hard around 1:30am, and that there are no recorded sightings of Mary ever bringing a client into the room, with or without Joe living there, ...and that there are no records that indicate she was being threatened with eviction....),.....there doesnt seem to be a "compelling" reason for her to solicit on the streets after 1:30am, the morning of November 9th....and therefore, based on other evidence, (the singing had stopped and the room was dark at 1:30am, no courtyard witness sees Mary after Mary Ann Cox at 11:45pm on the 8th, Mary Ann Cox comes and goes twice and notices no change in the rooms condition, and that Marys clothes or room do not indicate a muddy wet arrival home, which it would be when the rain was coming down hard at that time....), it seems quite plausible that Mary did not leave her room that night after 11:45pm.

Since both Hutchinson and Maxwell are not accreditted with viable trustworthy victim sightings, there seems to be some similar thinking by the authorities.

Which means, its quite plausible that the killer came to her room, that she was awake during at least some of that visit, and she knew him well enough to only be partially dressed. Either that, or she is killed by Blotchy Face.

Cheers Chava...all the best for the Holidays mate.

[Chava]

Thanks, Michael. The same to you!

We agree on this. I've always been on the fence about Kelly's murder. If she wasn't killed by a copycat--and given the injuries etc, it doesn't seem that way--then she was killed by the Ripper but hers is a more personal attack.

If you take away Kudzu and Maxwell, we have a woman in her crib singing to herself around 1.00 am. She is completely silent thereafter. We never hear or see her again. I think it's highly likely she went to bed. Someone came in after that. Either they let themselves in, or she let them in, or they broke in. But someone came in. And she was probably half-asleep when this happened.

The other canonicals look like they picked up the wrong punter. Those killings were brutal but in a way dispassionate. The Kelly murder was anything but that in my opinion. The killer did have the security of being in a room. But he had the insecurity of being completely trapped if anyone came into that room while he was in there. And what he did to that body has a real personal element in it, I think.

I don't know where this takes us. We could posit Barnett or Flemming as the killer. We could even resurrect Mr Morganstone. Or my old pal Mr McCarthy. She could have been killed by someone she knew but never mentioned.

It's even possible, given the Dorset St connection to at least one other victim, that Kelly was herself complicit in the murders a la Hindley/Brady or Homolka/Bernardo. And her accomplice found it advisable to get rid of her.