What the photos may tell of her last moments

[perrymason]

Hi Michael

Agreed, the killer entered her room while she was asleep. But, she's so tired that she falls asleep while undressing - and then wakes up because of a tap at the door? He waits for her to fall asleep before striking? If he knew her that well, he could have let himself in through the window while she was asleep originally. It would have been quicker for him. The downside is he wouldn't have got his smoke by the fire.

We know that Joe Barnett knew of the window pane Robert, and we know that as a former live-in he would perhaps be allowed to let himself in on occassion. We do not know who else, if anyone besides Bowyer and McCarthy, knew. And a man she might let in and a man she lets come in himself, are two different animals. She might have a fondness for someone, and allow him to enter if he knocks politely, even late, but what would she do if its not Joe Barnett using the window pane and opening the door?

We are missing two things,....yelling and screaming, and chairs and tables moved about....so the attack had to be sneaky, from inside the room.

Cheers Robert.

[perrymason]

editted: appeared as duplicate of prior post.

Cheers

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
I agree with your choice of suspects, I still favour Barnett over Fleming, simply because he would have known her nocturnal habits whilst living at Millers court, rather then the latter.
The whole scene sways towards domestic, so taking that on board we should not forget the man described as Lawrence[ surname?] who one witness described as proberly her 'Husband', he was a drover by trade, and witness describes him frequently visiting the deseased, and kelly herself apparently staying with him on occassions.[ until she tired of it]].
I am however not in favour of a nightime murder, but very much a daylight one, as I tend to believe in Mrs Praters opinioin that the cry heard was like 'Awakening from a nightmare' as this interpretation very much goes with Kit watkins interview with Lottie some three years later,who was then resident in kellys room[ how disgusting].
I still believe strongly that if one can solve the mystery of Millers court , the identity of the killer, and the motive would soon present itself.
Regards Richard.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,
I agree with your choice of suspects, I still favour Barnett over Fleming, simply because he would have known her nocturnal habits whilst living at Millers court, rather then the latter.
The whole scene sways towards domestic, so taking that on board we should not forget the man described as Lawrence[ surname?] who one witness described as proberly her 'Husband', he was a drover by trade, and witness describes him frequently visiting the deseased, and kelly herself apparently staying with him on occassions.[ until she tired of it]].
I am however not in favour of a nightime murder, but very much a daylight one, as I tend to believe in Mrs Praters opinioin that the cry heard was like 'Awakening from a nightmare' as this interpretation very much goes with Kit watkins interview with Lottie some three years later,who was then resident in kellys room[ how disgusting].
I still believe strongly that if one can solve the mystery of Millers court , the identity of the killer, and the motive would soon present itself.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

I either misplayed my cards, or you read me wrong, because Ill say it plainly thats how strongly I feel about this...I think Joe Fleming, the man who was said to have wanted to marry Mary...not Barnett, killed Mary Kelly.

And his broken heart and looming insanity is shown everywhere in that room. And for you Ripper fans,.....he lived in what could be described as the ideal location from which to kill the 5 women, and more. The Victoria Working Mens Home was just south of The Goulston Apron, and on an almost direct line East from Mitre Square. At least 3 unfortunates, not all Canonicals, were killed very close to his residence.

Cheers Richard.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

You've lost me! I thought you were arguing for a premeditated killing by a jilted lover. So, what would it matter to him whether he was allowed to come in through the door by knocking or instead by reaching through the window? Once he's made up his mind to kill her, he'll come in the best way he can.

I don't see why whoever it was couldn't have simply opened the door. No knocks, no taps.

[FrankO]

I think the left arm is extensively damaged as you say, but I would say that there is a decent chance the two diagonal slash type marks we see there may have been a result of a defensive posture. If her left arm is bent, the hand by her face, and he slips the knife in between to get at her throat, it could cause those.

Hi Michael,

I wasn't saying that it would be physically impossible, but what about especially my first point? The photo tells me that those wounds were probably post-mortem wounds. But, that's just me.

The best Mike!
Frank

[perrymason]

Hi Michael

You've lost me! I thought you were arguing for a premeditated killing by a jilted lover. So, what would it matter to him whether he was allowed to come in through the door by knocking or instead by reaching through the window? Once he's made up his mind to kill her, he'll come in the best way he can.

I don't see why whoever it was couldn't have simply opened the door. No knocks, no taps.

Hi Robert,

Ok....the door might have been unlocked, sure. Or she might have let Blotchy out and released the latch, locking it. But I dont think from what Ive read, the little that there is, that Joe Fleming, the man I think killed her...would know of that broken pane, or would open the door without knocking on it or the pane. He was an ex-live in, with at least one live-in ahead of him in line for Marys affections, and I never heard it said Barnett wanted to marry her...but I have about Fleming saying it.

They both gave her money, but only one could come to her room and perhaps just walk in, and thats Barnett.

If you focus on the fact that not one of any of the courts residents, the ones we hear from and the others, heard loud noises from Marys room, or someone scream like they were being attacked. Her killer got at her quietly, and that to me sounds like a man inside the room waiting for a good opportunity to strike....and only one type of man would be sitting there waiting while she fell back asleep, with her back turned....a man she knew well.

Cheers Robert.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

I wasn't saying that it would be physically impossible, but what about especially my first point? The photo tells me that those wounds were probably post-mortem wounds. But, that's just me.

The best Mike!
Frank

If original slash wounds became part of a larger area of post mortem mutilation, Im not sure I could tell whether they were post mortem or not, and I dont think Id go by the amount of blood visible in that area as a guideline of when the cuts were made.

They seem like angry slashes, and I think that fits with the rest of the evidence.

Cheers Frank.

[Robert]

Hi Michael

I seem to remember one of the Miller's Court residents saying that there was a Joe who used to visit her, but I'm not sure where I read it.

Anyway, I think the main thing is that I see this as a JTR killing, and you see it as a lovers' quarrel - and Richard sees it as both!

[perrymason]

Hi Michael

I seem to remember one of the Miller's Court residents saying that there was a Joe who used to visit her, but I'm not sure where I read it.

Anyway, I think the main thing is that I see this as a JTR killing, and you see it as a lovers' quarrel - and Richard sees it as both!

I think for one, Julia Van Turney is the source for the story of the "other" Joe, and I believe there are others....I seem to recall perhaps Maria saying something, but it seems to fit the Joe Fleming she was once a roommate with. He is a former roomy, Joe is almost still a part-time/who knows?...they seem to be ok together according to Maria on Thursday night.

So Barnett might use the door or window pane, but Fleming never lived there with Mary.

I apologise to Sam for getting on a roll,....as I am want to do, Ill take a background role now and let others toss their coins in. Sorry...didnt mean to be domineering.

Cheers.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff - the amount of money required for an "all-nighter" would have been beyond the means of the average East-Ender, and the Blotchy bloke in particular was unlikely to have splashed out. When you think of the money she could have earned by servicing as many clients on the streets where she found them - if she was inclined - she'd need a fairly whopping financial incentive to forgo all that in favour on battening down the hatches with one man.
Ben

The amount of money is irrelivant..MJK only had to believe that Jack had the money..he never intended to pay..what use would it be to her?

[Chava]

Are you suggesting that said Barnett replacement was the killer? She certainly hadn't found anyone to look after her by 2 AM when she asked Hutchinson for sixpence.

I don't believe a word that comes out of George Hutchinson's mouth.

[Sam Flynn]

So... about the photo

Look carefully, and you'll see that there's a narrow "groove" in Kelly's leg below the left knee, in the corresponding place where the "garter" is seemingly affixed to her right. It looks for all the world that an improvised "stocking keeper-upper" might have been tied there as well. Upon removing it, any dent in the skin caused by such an object would not have had the chance to return to normal, if she'd been killed within a relatively short time of removing it from her leg.

We've all experienced this phenomenon when removing socks, a belt or a watch - the skin remains "pinched" for several minutes afterwards, preserving the outline of the restriction, but gradually "bounces back" as it's replenished by one's (still-working) circulatory system. It might take five or ten minutes for the skin to resume its normal shape - possibly less for a younger person.

[Ben]

would be if there was a distance between Kellys head and the blood saturation that was comparatively dry.

Ah, but it isn't, Fisherman.

Thanks to pictorial evidence, we can see plenty of blood between the head in the middle of the bed and the partition. Notice the blood directly behind the head - perfectly consistent with the sort of residual ooze that trickles out in the wake of the initial arterial spurt.

I disagree with Phillips' conclusion. I also think that it Kelly's killer cut her throat right up against the partition, he must have been a numpty with no common sense. Try piddling against the wall with your member right against it - the wall will piddle back at you, believe me, and the same principle would naturally apply to a throat cut right against the wall.

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

The amount of money is irrelivant..MJK only had to believe that Jack had the money..he never intended to pay..what use would it be to her

Yes, but he'd have to produce it first, PJ.

"I can pay you, honest" would surely not have washed with Kelly. He would have needed to show her the goods first.