What the photos may tell of her last moments

[perrymason]

Hi Nats,

I've only referred to what I believe to be a sock and a rolled-up blanket, and suggested that the sock (if such it is) being draped over the rolled-up blanket might indicate that Kelly was removing her hosiery at the point she was killed. This may suggest that the killer attacked her before she'd had a chance to remove the other stocking. None of this has anything to do with Mary's mutilated remains, you'll be glad to hear.

I had to check back to see what you said Sam, and I believe both our responses to Nats indicate that the body itself is not the focus here, its how it came to be on the bed partially dressed, and if that indicates anything about her last minutes.

I have to say though Gareth, that the only accreditted witness account of someone entering Marys room occurred at 11:45pm on the 8th, so at what time do you think this undressing might have taken place? After the singing stops and the lights are out at 1:30am? Before? Sometime later on that morning?

There is no accreditted witness that sees her alive, in or outside her room, after her arrival, coming or going, so any trip out to collect a client is by neccessity, unsupportable with any known accreditted evidence. Not saying it didnt happen, just that you have no way at all at this time to prove a trip occurred.

Leaving the ONLY conclusion based on whats accepted as valid testimony, she was in her room, and likely asleep, because the only possible noise we can link to Mary or that room after 1:30am is a cry at approx 3:45am...leaving one to explain why she is still dressed after being in her room with the lights out and no noise for over 2 hours. And why when she starts to undress after waking, the noise of the attack mid-undress isnt heard by two women who were alerted to the cry.

That Mary knew her killer enough to be partially undressed in front of him is a given, whether thats because it was her professional demeanor, or because she knew him personally is the question.....and the evidence for any paying customer entering Marys room at any time is lacking any supporting statement by anyone that knew her, or valid witness testimony.

edited...to add,...Mary is the only Canonical that didnt have to pay for a bed the night she is killed, she had her own...in her own name.


Ok.....Im off for a few days, best regards to all.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

I agree with much of your post, but as for:

And why when she starts to undress after waking

I wouldn't say there's much evidence for that. If she went to sleep after 1.00am, say, I'm not sure why she should have shed more garments.

Best regards,
Ben

[ChrisGeorge]

Gareth, I reckon she was asleep. I doubt if the killer would have waited for her to undress. But if he did wait for her to undress, he surely would not have struck when she still had one sock to go. That is like something out of the Goons.

I agree that there's a good possibility that she was asleep or drowsy and the Ripper broke into the apartment. He could have known she didn't use a key and got in the same way she did, by reaching through the window. As for waiting for her to undress, this may sound like a silly thing to say, but he didn't wait for the others to undress, did he???

Chris

[ChrisGeorge]

P.S. The fact that she only has one stocking on -- see the garter on her right leg, so that is a stocking -- could be explained by her being drunk when she fell asleep.

Chris

[Pippin Joan]

I agree that there's a good possibility that she was asleep or drowsy and the Ripper broke into the apartment. He could have known she didn't use a key and got in the same way she did, by reaching through the window. As for waiting for her to undress, this may sound like a silly thing to say, but he didn't wait for the others to undress, did he???

Chris

anyone who knew Kelly knew how she got into her room, as well as anyone she had previously brought to her room. A previous client (with a mind to murder her) would remember that, knowing he could sneak in any time, now that Barnett was gone.

What's so strange about her being partially dressed? Either she was too drunk and tired to finish undressing, or the killer took the opportunity to overpower her while she was distracted by undressing.

[claire]

I think I must be missing something (like the right order of posts, probably!). Has it actually been established that that dark streak is a garter, then? If so (I wasn't convinced, but there you go), then I still don't think that MJK would have decided to completely undress for a punter (certainly not an unknown one). Also, can someone tell me where it is established that she took punters back to the room, particularly for whole nights?

Thanks

[Robert]

Claire, blotchy-face was surely a punter. And according to Hutchinson, she took a man back to her room around 2 AM on the morning of her murder.

[Cap'n Jack]

On sober reflection, Sam, I fear I may have been a bit harsh on you.
Pray continue; and excuse my somewhat aggressive stance on this subject when sex is mentioned.
Red bull to a rag and all that.

[claire]

Claire, blotchy-face was surely a punter. And according to Hutchinson, she took a man back to her room around 2 AM on the morning of her murder.

Okay. But is there a history of her having punters stay over? Seems to me that, as a casual working girl sharing her room with other women, having Barnett in and out and cross about others staying there, and having other means of making a bit of money, having 'overnighters' would be quite unusual.

As for Hutchinson I remain unconvinced of his identity or testimony, such as it was.

[Sam Flynn]

Gra'mercy, AP. A gentleman and a scholar.

[Stephen Thomas]

I don't fancy ploughing through all of the reports right now but I don't recall there being any mention of any 'overbody' bed coverings such as a top-sheet, a blanket or a quilt in the room. That rolled up blanket or whatever behind the bed is a bit of a mystery. November nights in London are pretty chilly and if Mary had gone to bed alone around 1 or 2 AM then surely she would have used it.

[Sam Flynn]

I don't fancy ploughing through all of the reports right now but I don't recall there being any mention of any 'overbody' bed coverings such as a top-sheet, a blanket or a quilt in the room.

There weren't.

That rolled up blanket or whatever behind the bed is a bit of a mystery. November nights in London are pretty chilly and if Mary had gone to bed alone around 1 or 2 AM then surely she would have used it.

Exactly my take on the matter, Stephen.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
You will proberly not be surprised that I am in complete agreement with Sam and Stephen on this one.
The picture indicates to me one obvious point, that is, the bedroll was not in use when Mary was killed, which suggests that she was unlikely to be ready to get into bed when attacked, at least for sleeping.
Which could reject the intruder theory, but of course the possibility that Mary passed out on the bed before having a chance to prepare the bed still remains.
The obvious solution is she was about to service a client therefore bed making was not required for a quickie, but the trouble is, what client, was it Blotchy, Astracan , or even the market porter seen by Maxwell[claimed]?
If infact Kelly was in the process of undressing, and had got down to her chemise, and infact did remove her left stocking and dangle it over the bedroll as I amongst others suggest, that would suggest would it not?. that she had no intention at that time of using that bedding for warmth, and the very act of sitting on the bed, removing that stocking and turning right to position that item on the roll would be a apt opportunety for her killer to strike.
I cannot see Mjk being so much in drink to get so far undressed , without having the stamina to get some covering over her near naked body.
Regards Richard,

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Ive time for a quick parry.....on the bedroll between the bed and wall, it seem to me that it was used as the perch for the camera for MJK3, and therefore may have been placed there by them. As far as the cold, Sam can tell you it wasnt freezing that night, and at some point that night some people think her fire melted a kettle spout, so the room may well have been warm....if she fell asleep half undressed and not completely covered.

She's perhaps 26. When I was around that age I fell asleep on a friends hardwood floor with only a tshirt on, in sub zero weather, ..and a football, North american style, for a pillow....yes, it was a fun night...the point being I had no idea I was freezing until I woke after a few hours.

To suggest she was attacked while undressing needs evidence to support it, and there is none of that information specifically in either photo. The enviromental witness testimony is what tips the scales in favour of her being asleep half dressed vs an attack from a late acqusition "client" mid-disrobing, that being no sounds, lights or visions of Mary or Blotchy either coming or going after 11:45pm on the 8th.....an explanation which is supported already in the accepted testimony....starting with the hour her room is dark and quiet, around 1:30am, and no-one had left the room,...or had been seen or heard doing so.

A remark was made about a "punter", I liked the response that suggested overnight "punters" were a whole different animal, and since we have only a single instance where we are told that Mary brought a man into her room that her neighbours didnt know, (they knew the Joe's), Blotchy Face represents the only possible proof that she ever brought a paying client to her own room. And for that "trick" she sings off and on for over an hour, and not long after the room is dark and quiet...until perhaps a voice is heard near it around 3:45am. We do not know when Blotchy leaves.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

Ive time for a quick parry.....on the bedroll between the bed and wall, it seem to me that it was used as the perch for the camera for MJK3, and therefore may have been placed there by them.

Why would they have draped what is almost certainly a stocking over it, though? I can't imagine that the bedding was that filthy that they'd have thought to protect the camera's wooden base with the deceased's hosiery. Nor that the camera j-u-s-t wasn't elevated enough for the shot, so that sliding a few microns of cheap silk under it would do the trick.

And, of course, there remains the question of who rolled up the blanket in the first place - more to the point, whether it had ever been in an un-rolled condition that night. If, as seems likely, it had not been unrolled - and if, as also seems likely, Kelly draped a stocking over it - then it would appear that she hadn't planned on tucking herself into bed at the point she died.

The notion that she was drunk, and flopped onto her bed part-undressed, is difficult to reconcile with there having been no seeming attempt to cover herself with that blanket, however untidily deployed. The draped-over stocking would seem to have put the lid on that notion. Plus, wouldn't an incapably-drunk and tired person, sleeping alone, simply have dropped the stocking on the floor?