Millers Court - the demolition picture

[m_w_r]

The victim, Kitty Ronan, had her throat cut from ear to ear while she was sleeping. Has it been already discussed?

Here is the link.

To the thread

There is also a dissertation by Andy Aliffe:

To Andy's dissertation

Regards,

Mark

[DVV]

I thought Miller's Court was demolished in 1929 (from Begg, JtR The Facts).
Matters said he took the last picture of the house. In the same chapter (MJK), note 45, Begg refers to other murders in Dorset/Duval Street. One having taken place in the very room of E. Prater (July 1909). The victim, Kitty Ronan, had her throat cut from ear to ear while she was sleeping. Has it been already discussed?

[Celesta]

Hi Cel,

The extract from Prater's testimony in the Daily Telegraph says it all as far as I'm concerned. That, and what Prater says elsewhere (the scream "as from the court"; noises at "the back of lodging house where the [as opposed to MY] windows look into Miller's Court") leaves me with very little reason to persist in the belief that Prater lived directly above Kelly's room in November 1888, as has so long been maintained.

Hi Sam,

I'm not belaboring the point with you. I'm just enjoying exploring the subject of the layout of the court. I just wish we knew more.

[Celesta]

Here is another reference to the Watkins article.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/globe_and_mail/19880830.html

With the quote:

Prater then took Watkins downstairs to the room where Kelly had died - "a dark, narrow room with no communication with the upstairs part of the tenement." Its current occupant was a woman named Lottie. "I was her friend," Lottie said, speaking with difficulty because of a broken and battered nose given her by a kick from her husband's heavy boot. "I was living further up the court then."

[Celesta]

I take your point, Sam.


Then there is this, which is a bit confusing. It's from the Old Bailey and was posted by Rob at the link below.


Police-constable HARRY WOODLEY, H Division. I made this plan of the first floor front room, No. 12, Miller's Court, Spitalfields (produced). It is correct. No. 12 is the room—not the house. No. 11 is the ground floor. I have shown the furniture in the room as it was at 4.45 a.m. on July 2. The room is 12 ft. by 12 ft. 2 in. The mantelpiece is about 8 ft. The first floor is the top. There is no gas there. The distance to the Victoria Seamen's Rest, Poplar, is two miles 530 yards, and from Miller's Court to Shoreditch Empire is 920 yards.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=542

No. 11 is on the ground floor? That would make more sense, than no. 12 being above no. 13. Who knows?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Cel,

The extract from Prater's testimony in the Daily Telegraph says it all as far as I'm concerned. That, and what Prater says elsewhere (the scream "as from the court"; noises at "the back of lodging house where the [as opposed to MY] windows look into Miller's Court") leaves me with very little reason to persist in the belief that Prater lived directly above Kelly's room in November 1888, as has so long been maintained.

[Celesta]

Sam, the rooms may have been renumbered. When Kit Watkins was there in 1892, # 13 was still Mary's old room. Watkins talked to Elizabeth Prater who took her across to # 13 to talk to Lottie. Liz was at this time living "opposite" Mary's room, but, unfortunately, there's no mention of the room # for the area about Mary's old room, in the brief article I read. By 1909, this upstairs area seems to have been number # 12. Why would an upstairs room have a lower number than the room below it?

As you say, it's hard to see # 20 as being above # 13, but it may hinge on how the buildings on the east side of the court are numbered.

In 1888, the numbers started, on the left, with # 1, across from Mary's door, where Julia lived and the Keylers were upstairs in #2. Cox was in # 5 downstairs, near the northwest corner.

How were the numbers along the east (right) side of the court laid out? That may be the key.

If Liz was not above Mary, in some spatial arrangement, that makes it hard to fit in the 'two doors to the right' from the 1909 quote. The person who made that statement was a resident of the court and one of the people to see the murder scene. Would he have gotten this wrong?

Maybe Kit Watkins' original article has more clues in it.

[Sam Flynn]

Daily Telegraph:
Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below.

Thanks Chris - and hereby hangs a tale:

"I live at 20 Room... above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below..."

As I said earlier - why on earth would the Telegraph have made up those two snippets of Prater's speech?

[Sam Flynn]

I'm looking at an old article by Andy Aliffe called Kit, Kitty, Kitten (Ripperologist, No. 21,. Feb. 1999). He cites the Illustrated Police News from July 1909 about the murder of Kitty Ronan. Kitty was murdered in Elizabeth Prater's old room, as we all know.

...as we all think, Cel. Prater lived in Room 20, not Room 12. Various renumberings may have happened over the years, but we have no evidence of what precise form these renumberings took. Suffice to say that it's jolly hard to conceptualise a Room 20 being above Room 13 at any point in time, not that one should expect much logic in the topsy-turvy world of Miller's Court!

[Chris Scott]

Forgive the length of this post but it may be of use
Some time back I gathered together differing versions of inquest testimony of various witnesses, Prater among them.
Below are the various versions of her inquest testimony and her initial police statement
Hope this helps
Chris S

Elizabeth Prater's Evidence

Police Statement of 9 November:
Elizabeth Prater, wife of William Prater a boot machinist of No 20 Room 27 Dorset Street, states as follows:-
I went out about 9 p.m. on the 8th and returned about 1 a.m. 9th and stood at the bottom of Millers Court until about 1.30. I was speaking for a short time to a Mr McCarthy who keeps a chandler's shop at the corner of the Court. I then went up to bed. About 3.30 or 4 a.m. I was awakened by a kitten walking across my neck, and just then I heard screams of murder about two or three times in a female voice. I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court. From 1 a.m. to 1.30.a.m. no one passed up the Court if they did I should have seen them. I was up again and down stairs in the court at 5.30.a.m. but saw no one except two or three carmen harnessing their horses in Dorset Street. I went to the Ten Bells P.H. at the corner of Church Street and had some rum. I then returned and went to bed again without undressing until about 11 a.m.



Versions of her inquest testimony
From inquest papers at Greater London Record Office:
Elizabeth Prater, having been sworn, deposed as follows:
I am the wife of William Prater, a boot machinist, he has deserted me for 5 years. I live at No 20 Room in Millers Court up stairs. I lived in the room over where deceased lived.
On Thursday I went into the Court about 5 o'clock in the evening and returned about 1 on Friday morning. I stood at the corner by Mr McCarthy's shop till about 20 minutes past 1. I spoke to no one. I was waiting for a man I lived with, he did not come. I went up to my room. On the stairs I could see a glimmer through the partition if there had been a light in the deceased's room. I might not have noticed it. I did not take particular notice - I could have heard her moving if she had moved. I went in about 1.30. I put 2 tables against the door. I went to sleep at once I had something to drink I slept soundly till a kitten disturbed me about 3.30 to 4. I noticed the lodging house light was out, so it was after 4 probably. I heard a cry of "Oh! Murder!" As the cat came on me and I pushed her down, the voice was in a faint voice - the noise seemed to come from close by - it is nothing uncommon to hear cries of murder so I took no notice - I did not hear it a second time. I heard nothing else whatever I went to sleep again and woke at 5 o'clock. I got up and went down and went across to the Ten Bells I was there at a quarter to six at the corner of Church Street - I saw several men harnessing horses in Dorset Street - Mary Ann Cox could have passed down the Court during the night without me hearing her - After having a drink at the Ten Bells I went home and slept till 11.
I went to bed at half past one. I did not hear any singing - I should have heard anyone singing in the deceased's room at 1 o'clock, there was no one singing.


The Scotsman:
Elizabeth Prater, wife of William Prater - I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20 in Miller's Court. On Thursday I went out of the court about five, and I returned close upon one on Friday morning. I stood at the corner of the court waiting for a young man. I never saw my young man. I went into my room and lay down. I went into M'Carthy's shop.
The Coroner - Was it open at 1 a.m.?
Witness - Yes, sir, and sometimes later. I told him to say to my young man that I had gone to my room. From where I was I could see if a light was in the room of the deceased. I have only spoken to her once or twice. I lay down on the bed at 1.30 in my clothes. I fell asleep directly, because I had been having something to drink, and slept soundly. I had a little black kitten which used to come on to my neck. It woke me up from 3.30 to 4 by coming on to my face, and I gave it a blow and knocked it off. The lights were out in the lodging house. The cat went on to the floor, and that moment I heard, "Oh! Murder!" I was then turning round on my bed. The voice was a faintish one, as though some one had woke up with a nightmare. Such a cry is not unusual, and I did not take any particular notice. I did not hear the cry a second time. I did not hear any bed or table being pulled about. I went to sleep and was awakened about five o'clock. I woke myself. I was not awakened by any noise. I went downstairs and saw some men harnessing their horses. I walked out, and went into the Ten Bells public house, where I had some rum. The last witness (Mary Ann Cox) could have come down the court and gone out, but I did not see her. I saw no one particular at the Ten Bells. I was there at a quarter to six, and shortly afterwards I returned home again, and went to bed and slept till eleven o'clock on Friday morning. When I went home first at half past one, there was no singing going on in the deceased's room. If there had been, I should have heard it.

Daily Telegraph:
Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below. I left the room on the Thursday at five p.m., and returned to it at about one a.m. on Friday morning. I stood at the corner until about twenty minutes past one. No one spoke to me. McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room. I went to bed at half-past one and barricaded the door with two tables. I fell asleep directly and slept soundly. A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. It seemed to proceed from the court.
[Coroner] Do you often hear cries of "Murder?" - It is nothing unusual in the street. I did not take particular notice.
[Coroner] Did you hear it a second time? - No.
[Coroner] Did you hear beds or tables being pulled about? - None whatever. I went asleep, and was awake again at five a.m. I passed down the stairs, and saw some men harnessing horses. At a quarter to six I was in the Ten Bells.
[Coroner] Could the witness, Mary Ann Cox, have come down the entry between one and half-past one o'clock without your knowledge ? - Yes, she could have done so.
[Coroner] Did you see any strangers at the Ten Bells ? - No. I went back to bed and slept until eleven.
[Coroner] You heard no singing downstairs ? - None whatever. I should have heard the singing distinctly. It was quite quiet at half-past one o'clock.
Daily News:
Elizabeth Prater said-My husband is a boot machinist, but he has deserted me this five years. I live in No. 20 Room, Miller's-court, and the deceased lived below me. On Thursday morning about 1 o'clock I was waiting for a young man outside the house. I was then on a level with the deceased's window, but I do not recollect whether there was a light in it. I went into my room about 1.30, and went to sleep directly in my clothes, as I had been having something. I slept very soundly. In the morning between 3 and 4 I was woke up by my kitten walking across my face. Just as I was turning over again I heard a faint voice, like that of a person awaking from a nightmare, say "Oh! murder."
You took no particular notice of it?-No, such a cry is nothing in the streets, Sir, and nobody takes any notice. The cry seemed to come from the court. I heard nothing whatever further. The cry was not repeated. At about 5.30 o'clock I woke again and heard some men harnessing their horses in Dorset-street. I got up and was in the Ten Bells public house by about six o'clock for the purpose of having something to drink. After that I went home again to bed and slept till 11 o'clock. I did not hear any singing from the deceased's room at half-past one.
East London Advertiser
Mrs. Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist, who had deserted her for the last five years, lived in a room above that lately occupied by the deceased. She was "out on the streets." When she went to bed on the Thursday evening it was about a quarter past 1 o' clock, but before she retired she barricaded the door with two tables and a chair. She had been having a deal to drink that night, so went to sleep immediately she lay down. Witness had a little black kitten called "Diddles" and at about a quarter past 4 o'clock in the morning it walked on to her face and awakened her. Almost immediately she heard a faint cry of "Oh! Murder!" In the neighbourhood it was a common thing to hear a cry of "Murder," so witness took no notice of it. The noise appeared to come from a room under her own. She heard no singing in the house the whole night. She was certain that nobody was singing at 1 o clock.

Echo:
Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist, deposed , "I live at No. 20 Room in Miller's-court. Deceased lived in the room below me.
When did you leave your room on Thursday? - About five o'clock in the evening, and returned to it about one o'clock on Friday morning. I waited about. No one came up to talk to me. I talked to Mr. McCarthy, as his shop was open at half-past one. I did not see any light in the deceased's room when I went upstairs. There might or might not have been a glimmer, but I did not see it.
Could you hear her moving about in her room? - Oh, yes, Sir. If there had been any noise I should have heard it. I went to bed at about half-past one, and went to sleep directly.
What was the next thing? - A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face.
It disturbed you? - Yes, it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away.
Yes? - And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"
Where did the sound seem to come from? - Up the court, somewhere. I did not hear it a second time. I did not take any notice of it. Then I went to sleep.
You did not hear any singing? - None whatever. If there had been any at half-past one I should have heard it.

Morning Advertiser:
Elizabeth Prater, wife of William Prater, said - I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20, in Miller's-court. On Thursday I went out of the court at about five, and I returned close upon one on Friday morning. I stood at the corner of the court waiting for a young man, if the truth was known. No one came up to me. I never saw my young man. I went into my room and lay down. I went into M'Carthy's shop.

The Coroner. - Was it open at 1.0 a.m.?

Witness. - Yes, sir; and sometimes later. I told him to say to my young man that I had gone to my room. From where I was I could see if a light was in the room of the deceased. I have only spoken to her once or twice. I lay down on the bed at 1.30, in my clothes. I fell asleep directly, and slept soundly. I had a little black kitten, which need to come on to my neck. It woke me up from 3.30 to 4.0, by coming on to my face, and I gave it a blow and knocked it off. The lights were out in the lodging-house. The cat went on to the floor, and that moment I heard "Oh, murder!" I was then turning round on my bed. The voice was "a faintish" one, as though some one had woke up with a nightmare. Such a cry is not unusual, and I did not take any particular notice. I did not hear the cry a second time. I did not hear any bed or table being pulled about. I went to sleep, and was awake again about five o'clock. I was not awakened by the noise. I went downstairs and saw some men harnessing their horses. I walked out, and went into the "Ten Bells," where I had some rum. The last witness, Mary Ann Cox, could have come down the court and gone out, but I did not see her. I saw no one particular at the "Ten Bells." I was there at a quarter to six, and shortly afterwards I returned home again, and went to bed and slept till eleven o'clock on Friday morning. When I went home first, at half-past one, there was no singing going on in the deceased's room. If there had been, I should have heard it.

St James's Gazette
Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist living in No 20 Room, Miller's court, said that the deceased lived in the room below her. The witness left her room at five o'clock on Thursday evening, and returned at about one o'clock on Friday morning. She waited about the stairs for twenty minutes. There might have been a light in the deceased's room, but she did not take any notice. She used to hear the deceased walking about in her room. She went to rest at half past one, and she was awakened between half past three and four o'clock and she heard some one say, "Oh, murder!" in a sort of faintish voice. She had often heard cries of murder near the court, and therefore she took no particular notice. She did not hear the cry a second time, nor did she hear beds and tables being pulled about. She did not hear any singing in the deceased's room at half past one o'clock.

Star
ELIZABETH PRATER,
a young married woman living apart from her husband, in 20 Room, Miller's-court, said: My room is just over that of the deceased. On Thursday night I slept in my clothes, having barricaded the door with two tables, as I generally did. My kitten disturbed me by putting its cold nose on my mouth, and as I turned over I heard a cry, "Oh, murder!" the first ejaculation being one of surprise, and the second a rather faint cry. Being used to cries of alarm in that neighbourhood, I did not take much notice, but dropped off to sleep.

Times
Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased. If deceased moved about in her room much witness could hear her. Witness lay down on her bed on Thursday night or Friday morning about 1:30 with her clothes on, and fell asleep directly. She was disturbed during the night by a kitten in the room. That would be about half-past 3 or 4 o'clock. She then distinctly heard in a low tone and in a woman's voice a cry of "Oh! murder." The sound appeared to proceed from the court and near where witness was. She did not take much notice of it, however, as they were continually hearing cries of murder in the court. She did not hear it a second time, neither did she hear a sound of falling, and she dropped off to sleep again and did not wake until 5 o'clock. She then got up and went to the Five Bells public house and had some rum. She did not see any strangers in the public house. She was quite sure there was no singing in deceased's room after 1:30 that morning, or she would have heard it.

[Celesta]

I'm looking at an old article by Andy Aliffe called Kit, Kitty, Kitten (Ripperologist, No. 21,. Feb. 1999). He cites the Illustrated Police News from July 1909 about the murder of Kitty Ronan. Kitty was murdered in Elizabeth Prater's old room, as we all know. The room number is given as # 12 Miller's Court.

"The room of the tragedy was the top apartment of a two-roomed house. There were about half a dozen white-walled houses in the court and the opposite houses are only a few feet apart. Two doors away on the right hand side near the entrance, is the house in which one of the "Jack the Ripper" murders was committed."

So there's at least one other reference to it. From this, my impression was that Mary's room is two doors away if you count from the bedroom door of Kitty's room. You then have the first entrance door and then Mary's. That makes it sound like #12 is above #13, however it may be situated on an x-y axis.

[Sam Flynn]

Despite the fact that I just posted a quote that says that almost verbatim? Hmm. When there are two conflicting quotes from press sources, directly over, vs over the shed, Im curious as to the reasoning that says one of them is just "tradition".

The sort of reasoning that says that one press cutting that "almost verbatim" puts her directly above Kelly's room needs to be seen against other press reports and, indeed, the witness's own words, which are nowhere near definitive on the matter... and the sort of reasoning that finds one such source which explicitly states that Prater's room was above the shed. Why would they have invented that detail, why indeed would they even have made such a "mistake", when journalistically it would have been far more thrilling to put her directly above the murder chamber, whether she lived there or not? Might not that same thrilling factoid explain why the tradition took root in the first place, and why so many appear reluctant to let go of what might well be yet another Ripperological myth?

You'll find proof aplenty, Mike, in Prater's own words. The only "proof" for her being in the room directly above Kelly seems to rest largely on tradition alone.

Despite the fact that I just posted a quote that says that almost verbatim? Hmm.

When there are two conflicting quotes from press sources, directly over, vs over the shed, Im curious as to the reasoning that says one of them is just "tradition".

All the best.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I think you know Ill toss the entire winters worth of chesnuts on the fire with proof.

You'll find proof aplenty, Mike, in Prater's own words. The only "proof" for her being in the room directly above Kelly seems to rest largely on tradition alone.

Hi again,

That was an interesting post White Knight, and good ammunition for those that feel the known evidence suggests that location. Either side of this argument can post quotes on that point, that suggest either her room being "over" Marys....like in the Tuesday Times November 13th,..." Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased. If deceased moved about in her room much witness could hear her."...or her room being over the shed, as in The Telegraph on the 13th, "...Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below".

It cannot be both physically...unless Elizabeth referred to the space between them only in terms of the elevation.

Elizabeth hears when Mary moves about in her room....before anyone says "thats only when she climbs the stairs", find the quote that has her saying that specifically.

I believe that when Elizabeth Prater made her statement, had there been any questions by the Coroner that asked her to specifically cite how she could hear something from the court when she faced onto Dorset...we would have our answer. But there is no issues with what she said apparently, and Im fairly sure that it wasnt due to the Coroners having experiences like yours living in a similar environment accoustically White Knight.

Sam, I think you know Ill toss the entire winters worth of chesnuts on the fire with proof.

Best regards all.