Millers Court - the demolition picture

I've just seen what you wrote earlier apropos my interpretation, and thank you for your kind words in doing so.

As far as Im concerned, and I feel its reciprocal, were always respectful friends first, so no need to say anything. I just wanted to remind you that I always remember that, even if its a point we dont agree on.

Cheers Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

On her speech, I think "as from the court" rather than "outside my window" is a better answer, because she negated the need for the second question to the second option...."which way did your window face"?

I hardly think that Prater would have felt the need to negate that question, Mike. In fact, "as from the court" is a rather convoluted turn of phrase, at least in terms of someone whose windows (in the orthodox version of the story) apparently overlooked the court itself.

I've just seen what you wrote earlier apropos my interpretation, and thank you for your kind words in doing so.

...indeed, Mike - as opposed to "outside my window", which she didn't say. In fact, Prater only ever refers to windows in the context of hearing noises "from the back of the lodging-house where the windows look into Miller's Court". Note that she doesn't use the possessive pronoun at all in any of this.

Don't both examples strike you as remarkably convoluted ways of saying "outside my window", or "where my window overlooks the court"? They do to me, which is another reason to believe that Prater did not live in the room above Kelly - if she did, then her speech was more elliptical than the orbit of Pluto.

I hope you noticed that when I referred to your position on this earlier Gareth, it was respectfully, without a name and without judgement. Just so you know Im not ignorant of your ammunition or reason in this regard.

On her speech, I think "as from the court" rather than "outside my window" is a better answer, because she negated the need for the second question to the second option...."which way did your window face"?

My best regards Sam.

[John Bennett]

Thanks, Gareth.

Now I look at a trusty Goad map and see there was indeed a door in the court, under the archway.

That must have been it, I guess.

JB

[Sam Flynn]

Does anybody have any idea where this stairwell would have been? Of course we know of a room above Kelly's but I can't say I've ever thought about how anybody would get up there.

Hi Jon,

As the door that Prater used was a couple of yards up the passage from Kelly's, one assumes that the stairs were behind that doorway. Kelly's partition might have been but a few feet away from the bottom of "Prater's" stairs.

[Sam Flynn]

If her window was open slightly, it would have sounded "as from the court", which is precisely what she said.

...indeed, Mike - as opposed to "outside my window", which she didn't say. In fact, Prater only ever refers to windows in the context of hearing noises "from the back of the lodging-house where the windows look into Miller's Court". Note that she doesn't use the possessive pronoun at all in any of this.

Don't both examples strike you as remarkably convoluted ways of saying "outside my window", or "where my window overlooks the court"? They do to me, which is another reason to believe that Prater did not live in the room above Kelly - if she did, then her speech was more elliptical than the orbit of Pluto.

[John Bennett]

Not quite, Cel. Prater only comments on being able to see (or not having noticed, as the case may be) light coming through Mary's partition as she climbed the stairs. One may assume from this that there were gaps in the makeshift wall separating Room 13 from the stairwell, but that's as far as the evidence allows one to go.

Does anybody have any idea where this stairwell would have been? Of course we know of a room above Kelly's but I can't say I've ever thought about how anybody would get up there.

[Sam Flynn]

That's a good point about her hearing the scream but not the scuffle. It's my understanding that the floors were so bad, she could see light through the cracks.

Not quite, Cel. Prater only comments on being able to see (or not having noticed, as the case may be) light coming through Mary's partition as she climbed the stairs. One may assume from this that there were gaps in the makeshift wall separating Room 13 from the stairwell, but that's as far as the evidence allows one to go.

Hi Chava, Celesta,

Youre in Little Italy Chava? Small world...Im in the Beaches. Well have to arrange a hook-up sometime.

On the source of the sound, if Marys door was open and she was at it opening it, when she dismayed "oh-murder", then it would not be sound that Elizabeth would have heard from below her. If her window was open slightly, it would have sounded "as from the court", which is precisely what she said. The silence after that cry is the absolute key.....the cry didnt start an attack. There was no scuffle heard immediately after or before the cry. The cry itself wasnt described as "bone chilling", "frightening" or even "loud". In fact whatever stirred Diddles wasnt enough to wake Elizabeth...its Diddles walking across her throat or face that did.

Marys door when opened look out into two story housing, the wall opposite her windows is white and 2 stories. A great acoustic environment.

Try and imagine all the variables...even the voice not being Mary's, and I think you'll see the logic in an open door.....and by extension, a known man to her arriving unannounced, perhaps drunk, and very late.

"Oh-Murder", she groggily exclaims while wiping sleep from her eyes, and then turns and shuffles back to the bed in her chemise with a single stocking removed and one semi so, leaving the door open for her male friend to close behind him. She tucks back in, on her right side, facing the wall, legs pulled up so her partner could slip in behind her when hes ready. They dont talk, they dont need to. He sits in the chair and waits for her to nod off again.

Cheers folks.

[Celesta]

Hi Chava,

That's a good point about her hearing the scream but not the scuffle. It's my understanding that the floors were so bad, she could see light through the cracks. More sound conduits.

[Celesta]

Hi Michael, Thank you!

There are more of us out here. A lot of them are even right here on the forums! I just don't know if they all play golf.

Best,

Cel

[Chava]

Hey Michael, a big 'hi' from TO's Little Italy!

As for the 'murder' cry. Prater's room, judging by those pix, was right above Kelly's. She would surely have sourced that noise as coming from below her rather than 'in the court', and if it did, I imagine it might have been louder than faint. If she was awake enough to hear that, she was awake enough to hear a struggle. And if Kelly was able to scream, she was able to fight. As it stands, there are what look like defense wounds on her hands. I can't believe Prater would hear the scream but not the kerfuffle.

Hi Celesta,

Man,.....a smart woman who likes history, architecture, discussing Jack the Ripper and Golf?.....and taken....youre a cruel reminder that it is possible to find someone of the opposite sex with like interests....its just highly unlikely and usually too late.

All the best Ms C.

[Celesta]

Hi Michael,

The narrow, dank passages are a large part of the atmosphere of these cases, not to mention most old cities. Atlanta had a major urban renewal project back in the 1860's, so we have few old atmospheric places.

I wish we had a similar court where someone could experiment with the "oh murder" cry and the singing and get a fix for what they would sound like under very similar conditions. It's one thing to hypothesize but actually conducting experiments can be very useful.

Yes, I used to play golf, but haven't in many years. I still have my clubs though.

Best,

Cel

Hi Esther, Rob, Philip....

Thanks for that dating guess Philip, nice to see you by the way. You too Rob....Ive never really had any question as to the window, for both you and Rob, but I do know sensible arguments have been made based on floor plans and statements that place her room in the front of the house over the shed....so......and I do know one very sensible and knowledgable fellow here who feels that we may not have all the data clear.

Heres why I am delighted to see it so clearly....I have a pet theory on "oh-murder". I believe it was Mary, and her door was open at the time, for Elizabeth to hear it "as from the court", and Sarah Lewis..."as if at the door".

I think that would effectively rule out an unknown man, to her at least,...as her likely killer if true. He may have been one of the bootsteps heard by Mary Ann until around 6am....heck, he may have killed her, left, and come back to wreak havoc for all we know.

Its always a great topic Esther, we all are trying to figure this one out....

Top of the evening to y'all.