Millers Court - the demolition picture

[White-Knight]

still think she heard stuff though. couldn't just sleep through it like so many others could she? daft, inconsistent stories she came out with, singing ,cats, faint cries, maybe it was a 24 hour area ..didn't stop others from sleeping through the whole thing, and maybe she did go along with what people expected she might have heard..played upto it even, but then again maybe she heard MORE than that too..and actually toned it down.. maybe, maybe,maybe.... whoops sorry i'm off again.......er..its a very good demolition photograph, love the colour coding!

[Sara]

The room with the purple pane is on the second floor, however.

Duh! So it is... I'd somehow mis-read the room above MJK's as a mezzanine - think I'd better lie down in a dark room LOL

Do we know if Prater was on the first or the second floor - or just 'over/above' MJK - if she was above the 'shed' - which we know to be the front ground floor room?

[Sara]

Having now read the full account on the Old Bailey site of the Marshall Murder on the first floor of 26 a few years later, and its clear account of two rooms and storeroom on tha tfloorl and also bearing in mind that the passageway ie the building was 20 feet form front to back, I think there must have been more than one room on the floor on which Prater lived. Which makes me less sure where she was.

But I don't think it matter tbh! NO-ONE in the immediate vicinity heard any sound of any struggle, and Pater only heard a faint single cry of 'murder!'. She was very drunk by all accounts, and in that state it's all too easy to imagine things, mis-remember, and confuse oneself and others. She was so drunk she woke in the night - as one does, when very de-hydrated by alcohol! - and was so 'in drink' that she had to get up very early and go and top up with more rum - three hours in the early morning! I'd not set too much store by anything she says.

I'm more interested in the several accounts of her having been seen by a few people she knew well AFTER the murder! I don't think we can be 100% certain she was the victim, unless Kelly's observation of her 'tattoos' is to be believed (and I can't see how he could have made them out, unless it was at the mortuary)

[White-Knight]

Changing Rooms

Blimey', are we still going on about Prater's room location? I'm sure this came up in my read only years and then somebody turned up some pretty good evidence or record that the room directly above was unoccupied.I'm rubbish though ,I can't remember the poster or find the source.Think Glenn Anderson may have been involved..Sam, don't you recall that? or am I dreaming? Anybody? I'm sure this little skirmish of Michael and Sam's is resolvable by that route anyway..and NOT by picking over Prater's statements..I WAS familiar with most of those by the way Michael, but thanks for your concern..I think the nub of it lies exactly in the idea that those statements seem to some of us to reflect a ghoulish tendency by journalists to locate Prater as near as possible...a tendency that she may have even gone along with herself ,for whatever reason..so the telegraph one ,though a little outnumbered (though not as heavily as you suggest as most in that number are still very vague),may well be the most reliable.

Hello Sam,

Can you straighten me out on this shed? I thought I understood, but now I'm not sure anymore! Where was it supposed to be? I've been using the diagram in the back of James Tully's book. I thought the shed was tacked onto the building opposite # 13 and on the same side of the court. IE across from Mary's windows.

Thanks.

Cel

Hi Celesta,

I know you asked Sam, but I believe its the only door on Dorset Street to #26, to the left of the archway, or right by photograph. It is on the ground floor, under a room above. It was at the front for convenience, to offload supplies right from a horse and cart.

Cheers

[Celesta]

Here's the link to the layout of the court that's posted on the CBook.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-viperdossier.html

[Celesta]

Hello Sam,

Can you straighten me out on this shed? I thought I understood, but now I'm not sure anymore! Where was it supposed to be? I've been using the diagram in the back of James Tully's book. I thought the shed was tacked onto the building opposite # 13 and on the same side of the court. IE across from Mary's windows.

Thanks.

Cel

[Sam Flynn]

A stance I feel is beneath you.

I'll be the judge of that, Mike. Personally, I don't think it's "beneath" anyone to ponder seriously why/how the Telegraph's transcript of Prater's inquest testimony inserted those rather significant words, "above the shed". It's no good throwing up a sandstorm of sources we're all familiar with, when we have such a specific statement that could not - be honest, now - have been made up or mis-heard.

The problem is that some people seem to want Elizabeth Prater to be a "spy in the sky" - or at least an "ear to the floor" - when it's rather clear to me that she probably wasn't anything of the sort.

[Chava]

So Prater lives above and to the right? She'd go up the stairs to the first floor and then turn right to get into her room? So Kelly's room was below the corridor?

I think the guys that built Millers Court weren't interested in building any unrenumerative space. Cram 'Em In would be their motto. What I expect is that Prater's room was mostly over the shed, but that at least a bit of it was over Kelly's room. It's unlikely that the rooms on the top floor echo exactly the rooms on the bottom floor. You'd need to stagger them slightly for the building to be stable.

One may quote various newspaper and inquest transcripts till the cows come home, but for the final time:

"I live in number 20 Room, Miller's Court... above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below". Where did the Telegraph's correspondent get those very specific details from when he transcribed Prater's words at the inquest?

Sam....if you were being honest with me and yourself, you would have said "despite the fact that my opinion is potentially substantiated with only one press clipping of the Inquest, and is diametrically opposed to the remaining 8 press clippings reviewed, of the same interview and person, I will use this one account as my platform and disregard all the 8 contrary ones. " Thats the truth Sam.

You can post one account "till the cows come home" Sam, there is no way that addresses the 8 that say youre mistaken. Its not like you to make up your mind that you have the single authoratative report and claim that the 8 accounts that do not support your contention are valueless, so thats why I am so adamant about getting you to at least agree....you have taken the least repeated phrase and made it the most relevant.

I have great respect for you Sam, but that doesnt allow me to accept your personal take that you have the "meaningful quote" and that the preponderance of the quotes suggest you are correct....because in fact, it is the exact opposite.

If you had said..."I believe this one"...instead of pounding that single quote over and over thinking it will somehow make the 8 opposing statements go away, I would have just debated that. You are saying the single quote of 9 is actually the correct one....something that is statistically improbable, and completely subjective.

A stance I feel is beneath you.

Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

One may quote various newspaper and inquest transcripts till the cows come home, but for the final time:

"I live in number 20 Room, Miller's Court... above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below". Where did the Telegraph's correspondent get those very specific details from when he transcribed Prater's words at the inquest?

[Sam Flynn]

From the post that Chris made just a few pages ago, on the windows looking into the court...."I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court."

There is no .."up the road", nor is there just one lodging house that looks into the court.....in case youve forgotten, 26 Dorset Street is a lodging house.

Indeed, Mike - and I agree with your interpretation. I'm sure that when Prater talked about "lodging-house", she was talking about the house in which she herself lodged, viz., 26 Dorset Street - hence my point about her circuitous language a couple of days ago. "Outside my window", or "in the court" would have been the natural thing to say, if hers was indeed the room traditionally associated with her - instead, she uses the phrase "at the back of the lodging-house".

[Sam Flynn]

Further to my comment above: << It seems to me on balance that Prater occupied the room over the 'shed' ie she had the upstairs (first floor) room of the house, BUT THAT DID HAVE A WINDOW OVERLOOKING THE COURT above Room 12 - see purple pane here:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1755 >>

The room with the purple pane is on the second floor, however.

PS: Thanks for bringing us back to the topic of this thread, Sarah! (Namely, the demolition picture )

The door into the shed is on the street, in the photos

That's one way in. Access to the shed may have been possible via the side-door, too. I daresay that, before Kelly's room was partitioned off, one might have been able to access the front of the house from her door as well.

[Sara]

Further to my comment above: << It seems to me on balance that Prater occupied the room over the 'shed' ie she had the upstairs (first floor) room of the house, BUT THAT DID HAVE A WINDOW OVERLOOKING THE COURT above Room 12 - see purple pane here:
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1755 >>

Looking at several photos properly LOL on the main East End Photos thread, it's clear of course that although the houses are only one room deep, excluding the lean-to of 12 & 13 Millers Court, they are FOUR stories tall.

There is nothing incompatible in what was reported of Prater's evidence with her having the room above the shed, which looked out over *both* the court and the street - or rather the window of the stairway would look out over the court, and would face her doorway

Sound from Mary's room would easily carry up the stairway and up from the Courtyard. I see nothing to argue over here! Remember that reporters were barred form the Court by police, so their reporting of the topography may well have been a little confused - and confusing

The door into the shed is on the street, in the photos, and that in the covered part of the alley must have given access to the stairs, which would abut the short wall of number 13 furthest from the fireplace. Do we know eg from the survey of London when these houses were built? - it might give us a clue as to whether this room was once part of the main house, though on available evidence this stretch of buildings seems to have been built as tenements - ie one room dwellings

PS re the Hulton demolition pic in my post above: I referred to glass negs - by 1928 the photographer would be using film of course; and there may well be more negs

Hi Michael

No, she said windows from the lodging house up the road looked into the court. She never mentions a window of hers overlooking the court.

Now here's a thing. A reporter from the big selling Star newspaper tracks her down and what does she tell him? She tells him that her room is ALMOST over
the murder room before going into her just over/right over mantra.

And the paper uses the 'almost over' quote as a sub-heading......

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881110.html

Hi Stephen,

From the post that Chris made just a few pages ago, on the windows looking into the court...."I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court."

There is no .."up the road", nor is there just one lodging house that looks into the court.....in case youve forgotten, 26 Dorset Street is a lodging house.

You quote one article from the Star, despite the fact that the London Times didnt agree with it .... the Times being a far superior source, and Sam used one of 9 accounts, from the Telegraph, and you both ignored the huge majority of accounts remaining that do not mention a shed nor do they say..."about" over Marys room. And in more than one single reference she refers to noise she either hears or doesnt heard specifically from her own room.

"I live at No 20 Room in Millers Court up stairs. I lived in the room over where deceased lived."

"The cat went on to the floor, and that moment I heard, "Oh! Murder!" I was then turning round on my bed. The voice was a faintish one, as though some one had woke up with a nightmare. Such a cry is not unusual, and I did not take any particular notice. I did not hear the cry a second time. I did not hear any bed or table being pulled about"

Sam's choice to believe, the Telegraph...."My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below." Again, a physical impossibility using the "known" floor plans to reconcile it.

"You heard no singing downstairs ? - None whatever. I should have heard the singing distinctly. It was quite quiet at half-past one o'clock"

"Mrs. Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist, who had deserted her for the last five years, lived in a room above that lately occupied by the deceased"

"I live at No. 20 Room in Miller's-court. Deceased lived in the room below me."

From her room..."You did not hear any singing? - None whatever. If there had been any at half-past one I should have heard it."

On being woken at approx 3:45am...."I did not hear any bed or table being pulled about."...painfully obvious that she is addressing the fact thatb she normally could hear things from Marys room, but didnt at that time.

"Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist living in No 20 Room, Miller's court, said that the deceased lived in the room below her......"She used to hear the deceased walking about in her room"......"She did not hear the cry a second time, nor did she hear beds and tables being pulled about. She did not hear any singing in the deceased's room at half past one o'clock. "

"ELIZABETH PRATER, a young married woman living apart from her husband, in 20 Room, Miller's-court, said: My room is just over that of the deceased"

"She was quite sure there was no singing in deceased's room after 1:30 that morning, or she would have heard it"

I made the mistake of checking this thread to see where discussions were going, not to post again, but when two credible sources are telling relatively new members that Marys room had no window into the court, she was over the shed not Marys room, and she couldnt hear Mary moving in her room when Elizabeth was in hers, I had to post accurate data that reflects the statements given,...not the skewed interpretations of individuals who apparently believe what they want to despite the overwhelming contradictory evidence.

Its no different than suggesting Mary is absolutely a Ripper victim despite all the evidence that suggests she likely knew the man who killed her, which would make her the only suggested Ripper victim with such ties, or including essentially a brief violent altercation with a woman gone bad, as a victim of the abdominal mutilator Jack...who must have been interrupted, so I should be used to it after a few years.

But when claims are made that can be refuted with posts based on statements already in evidence, then I thought they should be.

If I offer you an opinion you disagree with, by all means counter it. But when I copy portions of this site, known evidence and statements, quotes anyone can read and understand, showing that the overwhelming amount of recordings of Elizabeth Praters statements saying she was OVER Marys room, and she COULD hear things when she was in her room and Mary in hers,..then there is nothing to counter with opinion. You can choose 1 statement from 1 press source each if thats a suitable way to "prove" something in your estimation, but since 1 source backs your contention, and the remaining 8 sources that Chris posted back mine,....we neednt be having this discussion at all. Its clearly just a few cases of voluntary blindness.

I am interested in reading what people have to say on this topic, so I will check in, but not to post. This one last one is because I cannot believe that people who are supposed to be impartial and accurate make claims that are obviously a personal choice, not based on accuracy.....I figure your opinions can be whatever you like, as long as your accurate first.

Now the records are. She was over Marys room where she could hear furniture moved or singing if it occurred in Marys room while she was in hers...above it. The coverage is almost 90% that story...so lets leave that 10 percent, suggestions of shed and not hearing Mary move in her room, as what they are. The least likely answers, based on 88% percent of the coverage that said differently.

Im coming dangerously close to altering your opinion of what posts Im capable of Stephen, so again, Im out.....please address no more posts on this thread to me.

Best regards all.