Face first?!

[Suzi]

Hey with Kelly- Got to have been throat first!!! then OK face Mont!!

[Mike Covell]

I tend to go with the belief of face first, it's nice and personal, before the killer goes crazy on her body.

[perrymason]

Hello folks,

The wounds to Mary's face were arguably the only ones that indicate ferocity or anger, the excisions and amputations might well have been done calmly, which would allign with the placement of the biological specimens... rather than just the tossing on the table or floor of them.

For that reason I agree with Face First, I think he would not be in frenzied state for the entire time in the room, when in fact it appears he settled in for perhaps 30 minutes or more, but he might be at the attacks commencement....since Mary does have defensive wounds, he must have struggled to some degree with her...that may have angered him, if he has has avoided such resistance with the 4 priors. Maybe she bit him....and he lashed out with the knife and couldnt stop himself.

I think its very possible Mary may be the only victim in the JtR saga that was awake and alive when she was first cut....he may have choked the others into an unconscious condition before cutting their throats.

Best regards all.

[Mitch Rowe]

Monty's argument that there is no reported fecal matter or so forth in the facial wounds would seem to point toward the facial mutilations happening before the rest.

Yes.. Well when I see see the conclusive test results Ill be glad to make an opinion on that.

[Mitch Rowe]

And this is an MJK topic so speaking of her I would say all I really have to go by is what happened in Nichols/Chapman and I see no attempt. I think its reasonable to assume JTR fantasized about what he was going to do before he did it. And the face must not have been too important to him compared to the internal organs and or the abdomen.

[Sam Flynn]

And the face must not have been too important to him compared to the internal organs and or the abdomen.

It's possibly less a matter of importance than expediency, Mitch. He's near the face just after he cuts the neck - so why not go for it then? On the other hand, if it was mission accomplished once he'd secured an apparently "important" organ, why stop to slash the face? Personally, I don't think he'd have cared overmuch about the order in which he mutilated - just so long as he did.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Michael!

Hello folks,

The wounds to Mary's face were arguably the only ones that indicate ferocity or anger, the excisions and amputations might well have been done calmly, which would allign with the placement of the biological specimens... rather than just the tossing on the table or floor of them.

For that reason I agree with Face First, I think he would not be in frenzied state for the entire time in the room, when in fact it appears he settled in for perhaps 30 minutes or more, but he might be at the attacks commencement....since Mary does have defensive wounds, he must have struggled to some degree with her...that may have angered him, if he has has avoided such resistance with the 4 priors. Maybe she bit him....and he lashed out with the knife and couldnt stop himself.

I think its very possible Mary may be the only victim in the JtR saga that was awake and alive when she was first cut....he may have choked the others into an unconscious condition before cutting their throats.

Best regards all.

So, Mary may have had the first cut on the face already, while screaming "Murder, oh murder!"?

All the best
Jukka

[Dan Norder]

Yes.. Well when I see see the conclusive test results Ill be glad to make an opinion on that.

Fair enough, but you have already made and posted an opinion in the absence of conclusive test reports to support your view. I don't know why so many people expect anyone who has a different opinion to be forced to support it with more evidence than they have to support their own.

[Mitch Rowe]

It's possibly less a matter of importance than expediency, Mitch. He's near the face just after he cuts the neck - so why not go for it then? On the other hand, if it was mission accomplished once he'd secured an apparently "important" organ, why stop to slash the face? Personally, I don't think he'd have cared overmuch about the order in which he mutilated - just so long as he did.

Im thinking its possible JTR was interested in reaching a certain adrenaline level and he may have actually wanted to put himself in a tight situation. That delicate balance between what he can get away with without getting caught. The facial mutilations are something he can do and be prepared to bolt at any second. He can prolong his adrenaline high after completing his primary goals. After all I can think of a number of ways to do what Jack did and have a much safer environment.

[Mitch Rowe]

Fair enough, but you have already made and posted an opinion in the absence of conclusive test reports to support your view. I don't know why so many people expect anyone who has a different opinion to be forced to support it with more evidence than they have to support their own.

No Dan,
Im not expecting you to to support anything with more evidence. Im merely pointing out that there is not much to support either opinion. Yours is just a valid as mine.

EDIT>>> And if a valid report surfaced wich did not support my opinion I would be glad to rely on that instead of having to speculate.

[Dan Norder]

Im merely pointing out that there is not much to support either opinion. Yours is just a valid as mine.

Fair enough. That's all any of us can do in ambiguous situations. I just thought the particular turn of your phrase was suggesting otherwise, and I'm glad to see it was not intended that way.

[emlodik]

Since the first two (three) victims were killed in relative hurry and their face was untouched, it appears that Jack went for the face last...

[Monty]

Thats assuming the face was on the agenda for those murders, though it obviously wasnt for Chapman.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Since the first two (three) victims were killed in relative hurry and their face was untouched, it appears that Jack went for the face last...

An interesting thought, but I don't think we can be so sure. We don't really have a good idea about how much time the killer had at his disposal in Buck's Row (there were only "after" witnesses, and none immediately "before"), and it could be said that the killer had more time available to commit the Hanbury Street murder than he had in Mitre Square. The fact that the killer inflicted several abdominal incisions on Nichols, and had enough time to cut three pieces from Chapman's abdomen, but only managed one jagged abdominal wound on Eddowes, lends support to the view that he was under the greater time-pressure during the latter murder. Besides, slashing a face would take up comparatively little time - arguably less than 30 seconds in the case of Eddowes, and perhaps not much more than twice that in the case of Kelly.

[kensei]

Since the first two (three) victims were killed in relative hurry and their face was untouched, it appears that Jack went for the face last...

Unless the theory is true that Jack hated pretty faces (or at least pretty by the standards of the time), and would have had no drive to slash the faces of Polly or Annie because they were less attractive. Of course I always feel bad whenever I mention that as if I'm insulting those ladies, and I really don't mean to.