Murder!

[KatBradshaw]

There seem to be a few difference with Kelly. Such as the postmortem suggesting that the right carteroid artery was severed causing death rather than the left. I am not saying that I am sure it was Kelly, just that I think it is plausible given the context of the time.

[Bailey]

There seem to be a few difference with Kelly. Such as the postmortem suggesting that the right carteroid artery was severed causing death rather than the left.

Could this speak to the killer's position relative to the victim? If, as many think, he generally killed from behind, here he is on top of a woman lying on a bed. Would he therefore be cutting in the opposite direction?

B.

[Sam Flynn]

If the same killer did for Kelly also did for the others then I find it odd that he let her scream. He certainly dispatched the others silently and swiftly.

Unfortunately we don't know that, Monty. Apart from the fact that Chapman seems to have been allowed a "No!", the evidence from the other murders doesn't strictly mean that the victims died silently - only that nobody happened to hear.

[Sam Flynn]

Could this speak to the killer's position relative to the victim? If, as many think, he generally killed from behind, here he is on top of a woman lying on a bed...

...or standing/sitting to her side.

[Monty]

Gareth,

Yes, your right, we dont know for certain. However, its the falling tree in the forest isnt it? I can state the same for the opposite.

Hewitt, Crow and the Mahoneys, Purkiss and the Greens, Walker and Cox, Kranz, Morris and the Pearces along with the Clapps do not report a call or sceam.

And its on that basis I made my statement.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Neil,

Hewitt, Crow and the Mahoneys, Purkiss and the Greens, Walker and Cox, Kranz, Morris and the Pearces along with the Clapps do not report a call or sceam.

And I've no reason to doubt that they didn't hear a call or a scream either - but that still doesn't mean that there wasn't a call or a scream.

Many potential "ear-witnesses" to the other murders were either partly or fully asleep, listening to music or singing, busy in a warehouse, or otherwise not particularly close by when the other victims were killed. In Kelly's case, one ear-witness lived in the same building, and the other was dipping in and out of sleep in a room across the court. Seen in this light, Lewis and Prater were only bested in their proximity to the action by Cadoche.

The latter was passing within a few feet when he heard Annie's (probable) exclamation of "No!", and the sound of something falling against the fence. If he hadn't been there, and nobody else from #27 or #29 had stated they'd heard anything, we might fairly surmise that Annie had mutely succumbed to the Ripper - but we'd probably be wrong.

[Monty]

Gareth,

As I said, I agree. Theres no certain supporting evidence either way however the fact that no witness reports a loud scream or call would indicate he struck swiftly and kept noise to a minimum.

And apart from Strides murder, the other sites were relatively secluded and quiet.

Monty

[perrymason]

Gareth,

As I said, I agree. Theres no certain supporting evidence either way however the fact that no witness reports a loud scream or call would indicate he struck swiftly and kept noise to a minimum.

And apart from Strides murder, the other sites were relatively secluded and quiet.

Monty

Hi Monty,

I would hesitate a bit before assuming there was any immediate threat which was indicated by her call ...If Mary even made the call.

Sarah Lewis wasnt sound asleep...she dozed off and on in the chair. And Elizabeth was already awake when the "faintish" cry is heard...she was not awakened by it, Diddles did that part. Which implies that perhaps Diddles heard the pre-cursor...a knock or tap on the window or door.

I think that the call was heard by both women as "from the court" also indicates the door may have been open at the time, making it a foolish risk to jump her at that moment.

And we know he doesnt. She is killed on the bed, on the right side of it, and no further noise was heard by anyone after the call. A struggle from door to bed would have been heard, perhaps even muffled cries,....and she has defensive wounds on her hands....indicating that he had the knife and that was known by her. Yet no noise.

For me, the only answer that makes sense, if she never left and has not recently returned as GH would have us believe, is that she answered the door, recognized the person standing there, and in either shock at being summoned from her bed, or in annoyance, she mutters "Oh-murder" with the door open. Meaning the door was open when she called out and further sounds at that moment would be bouncing off the walls.

Best regards Monty

[Monty]

Michael,

Prater is inconsistant in her story. She claims 2 or 3 screams in her statement yet tells the inquest she hear only a singular cry from a faint voice.

Now this inconsistanty may be explained by the fact that Prater had only just awoke and may still have been sleepy. Lewis was awake at that point, though her testimony conflicts with Prater.

Witness statements are a bloody minefield!

[Sam Flynn]

Elizabeth was already awake when the "faintish" cry is heard...she was not awakened by it, Diddles did that part. Which implies that perhaps Diddles heard the pre-cursor...a knock or tap on the window or door.

More likely - the cat may have heard the sounds of a struggle, and perhaps a preliminary cry for help. I don't think that a cat would be particularly spooked by someone knocking a door or tapping a window some yards away.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

I think that the call was heard by both women as "from the court" also indicates the door may have been open at the time

Mary's door wasn't strictly "in the court" to begin with - it was barely outside the covered archway, and the courtyard itself (such as it was) lay beyond her room's northern wall, with its broken windows.

She is killed on the bed, on the right side of it, and no further noise was heard by anyone after the call. A struggle from door to bed would have been heard...

...you may have painted yourself into a corner here, Mike, by assuming that Kelly was accosted at her open door and issued her cry of "Murder!" at that point. It may be true that no further noise or struggle was heard (check: reported) after the scream, but isn't it more likely that a struggle occurred before the cry of "Murder!" went up? If so, maybe we have a witness - albeit of the cat variety - who heard that struggle, and whose actions should at least give us paws for thought.

[Monty]

Its a shame the cat was never called to attend the inquest.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Its a shame the cat was never called to attend the inquest.

...they'd have got more sense out of it than some witnesses, I'm sure Perhaps the local moggystrates objected?

[Bailey]

Perhaps the local moggystrates objected?

Ooooh, Sam! I'm generally pretty forgiving of even the worst puns, but that may be going too far

B.

[FrankO]

If the same killer did for Kelly also did for the others then I find it odd that he let her scream.

Hi Monty,

If Kelly was already lying down, her killer - if he was the Ripper - found himself in a different situation at the point when he was about to strike. His previous victims had all been standing right in front of him, at arms' length, when he struck. All he had to do was reach out and do whatever he did to get them down and he could do that before they knew what hit them. If Kelly was lying on the bed with him beside the bed, I can imagine it would not have been equally easy to reach her without her realising what was going to happen.

All the best,
Frank