Murder!

[Supe]

Well, this thread has certainly taken a strange turn or two in the past 24 hours. What seemed simply two sides of the same coin yesterday--that the cry of "Murder" heard on November 9 was undoubtedly literal in meaning, but tended to be disreagarded because it was often used as a mild expletive at that time--has become any number of coins (most of them, to my mind, "counterfeit").

Oh well, can't say the the message boards aren't entertaining.

Don.

[perrymason]

Its a fact that there are few threads where the fence is the only seat in the house, Don,.. but this is a good one, so lets enjoy the ride for the moment.

If the call signalled the actual attack of Mary Kelly, knowing she struggled and had defensive wounds, if Elizabeth Prater was good to her word and could hear when Mary walked about or furniture was moved, then her attacker may have committed the most silent kill of them all, as both Mrs Prater and Sarah Lewis are now wide awake listening for that second call, or noises...the ones that actually mean trouble. They never came. And the call may have been made while Marys door was open to the courtyard, if Elizabeth heard it "as from the court", not "as from downstairs".

Elizabeth describes the cry as "faintish", yet Sarah hears it "as at her door". I think explained perhaps by the amplification effect due to the narrow but two story courtyard. And that could mean that the voice was very faint, but somewhat amplified before Elizabeth even hears it, through what most feel is her courtyard window.

"Oh-murder" is by witness testimony at a few inquests, a commonly heard phrase, so to suggest that Mary's is indeed literal,...if by Mary at all, one would need some supplementary evidence of some violence occurring on her person at that precise moment. But as I mentioned, it appears to be silence only.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

if Elizabeth Prater was good to her word and could hear when Mary walked about or furniture was moved...

...which she only spoke about in the context of her (Prater) passing the partition or on her ascent up the stairs. We mustn't lose sight of that context:

"McCarthy's shop was open, and I called in, and then went to my room. I should have seen a glimmer of light in going up the stairs if there had been a light in deceased's room, but I noticed none. The partition was so thin I could have heard Kelly walk about in the room."

[perrymason]

Thats a fair qualifier Sam, but if she did reside above Marys room as some, myself included, believe, then it would'nt take much to hear through the floor I would think. But if she is located somewhat further fore than aft... ...then perhaps sounds would not be as troublesome to her.

She was however listening intently at the moment she says she heard no further sounds.

Cheers Gareth, best to you as always.

[Supe]

Michael,

it would'nt take much to hear through the floor I would think.

Dinna be so sure. You may have "thin partitions" (though I would suggest that, given the materials at hand, the partition may not have been nearly so flimsy as we might think today) but you won't have "thin" floors for very long else, like Jack and Jill, you come tumbling down rather quickly. Routinely there would have been a plastered ceiling attached to lathes attached to beams. Then certainly flooring over them and likely a sub-flooring as well. Even were Prater's room over Kelly's there is no guarantee a reasonably stealthy intruder would be heard. Nor can you be so sure that Prater was "wide-awke." If roused from a sound sleep as she suggests, it would be some time before she got all the soporific "cobwebs" cleansed from eye and ears.

You weren't sharing the sheets with Liz (no aspersions on your character there), so it is all conjecture. The qualifier Sam provided from the testimony was a valid one and you cannot safely make assumptions about either the amount of noise that might travel to Prater's room or her state of alertness.

Don.

[Sasha]

I don't want to sound difficult on this issue but a couple of things bother me. First, I think I read somewhere that it was raining on the night of. Wouldn't rain muffle voices and mask where they were coming from? The other thing that bothers me is that people are asserting that victims of murder would cry "murder" to describe what was happening to them when threatened with the same. I would have thought cries of "help" or "please no" would be more natural. That doesn't mean I don't believe that MJK could have uttered those words but I think the circumstances would have been a little different to those described here. I think that Mary had promised Jo that she'd get off the game. He'd seen her with Mr Blotchy and made some assumptions and gotten mad. He turned up at her front door and let himself in. She wakes up and sees him and says "oh, murder" as in "oh, shxt, I've been sprung." She only expects a row or possibly a few slaps. He approaches her and covers her mouth (as murderers are known to do - it apparently makes it easier to kill someone if they are silent, more like a doll than a person). He then dispenses with her (presumably by cutting her throat). The rest is history. Anyway, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

Sasha

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Sasha!

A very possible scenario!

But one thing; if we presume, that MJK was really murdered by Saucy Jacky himself and had he been Mr. Blotchy, he would very obviously have been caught! That is: a man with such a face around every murder scene would probably have been a bit too striking to go totally unnoticed!

My view about JtR is, that he was the most least noticed everyman.

All the best
Jukka

[Hellrider]

If Barnett was Mary's killer, then I think it might have been exactly as Sascha describes it. Only problem about it: Barnett was well-known and could not have taken to a process of mutilation that might have taken him hours to complete, without having to fear detection or even being caught in the act. Especially if he knew that Mary used to have visitors in her room.

Jukka,

don't be so sure about characteristic facial features of that man being noticed and recognized in all cases. I was involved into a row with physical violence as well last week (without me doing anything though; another person was the aggressor) and I was surprised how little of the attacker's face I could describe to the police. It was NOT dark...

[Dan Norder]

The other thing that bothers me is that people are asserting that victims of murder would cry "murder" to describe what was happening to them when threatened with the same. I would have thought cries of "help" or "please no" would be more natural.

Except, as already pointed out, people at the time did cry out "Murder!" when being attacked and found it perfectly natural.

These days most women wouldn't find it natural to wear long, heavy dresses like the ones commonly worn in the Victorian era. I hope nobody would argue that because we find it strange now that everyone back then did also and therefore there must be some other explanation for all the photos of women in long dresses and the police reports saying the victims had been wearing. Maybe it was all a set up. After all, surely a prostitute would have been wearing fishnets, a bikini bottom and a tank top... right? No?

[Cap'n Jack]

No conspiracy theory here, Natalie, they were just plain lying because they couldn't afford for their landlord, 'Carthy, to be prosecuted for 'living on the immoral earnings' of prostitutes, which he obviously was.
The girls counted their pennies and 'Carthy counted his pounds.

Dan, it is still something I'm looking at, but there are several references to the fact that the prostitutes of Whitechapel distinguished themselves by wearing striped stockings, often red and white.

[Robert]

Of course, "oh murder" sounds strange to modern ears. However, it was not uncommon for people to utter this in life-threatening circumstances. Also, what is often rendered "oh" in press reports may simply have been a convenient way of describing a sort of cry or scream, such as "aaagh murder"
or something similar.

As Tommy Cooper would say, "Just like that....or it might have been like that..."

[KatBradshaw]

In the past people did tend to shout what was happening. So if there was a fire then they would shout 'Fire!'.
It is also noted that the 2 witnesses who heard this cry both commented that it was not uncommon. So I think it is highly plausible that Mary did shout 'Oh Murder'.

[Monty]

If the same killer did for Kelly also did for the others then I find it odd that he let her scream.

He certainly dispatched the others silently and swiftly.

Monty

[KatBradshaw]

He may have felt more confident because she was inside.

[Monty]

I say being inside was more of a risk.