Was Mary Kelly killed in daylight hours.?

[Wickerman]

I don't think that's quite correct Simon.

In the first place, the Times wasn't actually quoting Phillips but referring to his opinion. And the full sentence in context is this:

'Against these statements is the opinion of Dr. George Bagster Phillips, the divisional surgeon of the H Division, that when he was called to the deceased (at a quarter to 11) she had been dead some five or six hours.'

Quite possibly the opinion was obtained second hand too. No press were allowed within Millers Court, so a Times reporter could hardly have even overheard the Doctor, much less interviewed him.

The Echo, of the same date, tells us:
"Dr. G.B. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of the H Division, whose reticence is justified by an assurance he gave of secrecy, has copious notes of the result of the post-mortem examination, and with nearly every conclusion at which he has arrived."

It appears Dr. Phillips was not inclined to share any opinions he had, at any time.

The same article continues with:
"Dr. Phillips has only vaguely indicated to the local police the result of his investigations, but a report on the question has, it has been asserted, been jointly made by him and Dr. Bond, and submitted to Sir Charles Warren."

This tends to be a reference to Dr. Bond's report for Warren/Anderson. It also appears to suggest the collaboration of Dr. Phillips. We cannot ignore the possibility that the 1:00-2:00 am estimated time of death was the opinion of both Doctors.

Dr. Phillips did make a preliminary examination on entering the room at 1:30, after which the photographer appears to have been permitted to enter, prior to the post-mortem beginning at 2:00 pm.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

I must remember to get better batteries for the calculator.

Of course, TOD was between 8.00 and 9.00 am.

Still, I'm glad to learn that all the temporal disparities are purely academic.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Dr. Bond, who arrived in Room 13 at around 2.00pm, said "one or two o'clock in the morning would be the probable time of the [Kelly] murder.”

Big difference.

There obviously is a big difference between 1-2 and 8-9 but that assumes (a) that Phillips' opinion was being accurately summarised by the Times journalist and (b) that the Times was wrong in saying that the estimate was made when Phillips looked through the window at the time he arrived at Miller's Court.

If he did estimate five or six hours prior to 10.45, as the Times said, then there is still a difference but it is not quite as big.

However, as I've already mentioned, it's all academic. It was not possible for the doctors to accurately estimate a time of death, so it would not be at all surprising if there was a big difference between the two estimates.

[David Orsam]

Calculating from 2.00 pm puts Kelly's TOD between 7.00 and 8.00 am.

I don't think that's mathematically correct is it?

Five or six hours prior to 2pm creates a TOD between 8.00 and 9am doesn't it?

[David Orsam]

Hi David,

I was not suggesting that Dr. Phillips estimated Kelly's time of death at 10.45 am.

Dr. Phillips could only have estimated Kelly's time of death after entering Room 13 at the earliest 1.30 pm.

That's not what the Times said though. It was quite clearly stated that Phillips' opinion was that:

'when he was called to the deceased (at a quarter to 11) she had been dead some five or six hours.'

If you are saying that the Times has got it wrong about the time he made the estimate then it could equally have got it wrong about the five or six hours could it not? That was why I made the point that was not a quote from Phillips in the Times.

[Robert St Devil]

appreciated david. im sure using her body temp was out by the time they get to her. and with the cold weather, doubt there were many flying insects buzzing around her fish and potatos. if that pool of blood in the corner was still a wet mess (and not coagulated), could that indicate her death was later in the morning? if the organs were "more fresh" (apologies)??

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

I was not suggesting that Dr. Phillips estimated Kelly's time of death at 10.45 am.

Dr. Phillips could only have estimated Kelly's time of death after entering Room 13 at the earliest 1.30 pm.

Calculating from 2.00 pm puts Kelly's TOD between 7.00 and 8.00 am.

Dr. Bond, who arrived in Room 13 at around 2.00pm, said "one or two o'clock in the morning would be the probable time of the [Kelly] murder.”

Big difference.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

what is dr phillips metric for his estimation for time of death david? is he basing it on average rigor mortis times, or is there another calculation method available to him?

He never explained, if he even did state what the Times attributed to him, so it's impossible to say, Robert.

All we have is a rather jumbled explanation put forward by Dr Bond on the basis of Kelly having taken her last meal at 10 or 11pm - for which there is no known evidence - but even if she had, he wouldn't have been able to come to a reliable time of death due to different people having different rates of digestion.

[Robert St Devil]

what is dr phillips metric for his estimation for time of death david? is he basing it on average rigor mortis times, or is there another calculation method available to him?

a fortune teller told me the same thing simon

[David Orsam]

So why would there be fish & potatoes in her stomach, if Maxwell had just seen Kelly throw up?

Does one empty the entire stomach contents when throwing up?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Robert,

You definitely missed your vocation as a fiction author.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Hi All,

The Times, 12th November 1888, quoted Dr. Phillips as saying, “she [Kelly] had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination.

Phillips did not gain access to Room 13 in order to commence his examination until 1.30 pm, so this puts the time of Kelly's death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.

I don't think that's quite correct Simon.

In the first place, the Times wasn't actually quoting Phillips but referring to his opinion. And the full sentence in context is this:

'Against these statements is the opinion of Dr. George Bagster Phillips, the divisional surgeon of the H Division, that when he was called to the deceased (at a quarter to 11) she had been dead some five or six hours.'

So the claim here is that Kelly had been dead some five or six hours before he was called at 10.45 which would strictly place the time of Kelly's death somewhere between 4.45am and 5.45am.

I would also add that if you are going to calculate from the time of the examination then that probably began at 2pm. Phillips said he entered the room at 1.30pm but also refers to his 'subsequent examination' - it is Bond who says his own examination commenced at 2pm and presumably he started at the same time as Phillips.

However, it's all academic because there was no way that either doctor could accurately have estimated the time of death, especially not within such a narrow range of one hour. And Phillips certainly could not have come to a sensible conclusion at 10.45am on the basis of looking through the window.

[Robert St Devil]

hi simon wood

this is more of an amusement but...

if mary jane kelly is built in bodyframe like the reports of jack the ripper describes, roughly 5 and a half foot and stout...

maybe he slips her dress over his clothes and walks out in the morning, her dress being long enough to cover his shoes, and that,s why the police found her shoes "still sitting" next to the fire (as pointed out in illustration in another recent thread).

[Wickerman]

So why would there be fish & potatoes in her stomach, if Maxwell had just seen Kelly throw up?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Times, 12th November 1888, quoted Dr. Phillips as saying, “she [Kelly] had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination.

Phillips did not gain access to Room 13 in order to commence his examination until 1.30 pm, so this puts the time of Kelly's death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am.

So, allowing for a little wiggle-room in her timing, Mrs Maxwell may well have encountered Kelly.

Regards,

Simon