Was Mary Kelly killed in daylight hours.?

[Robert St Devil]

just to be the devil,s advocate but... fripperies! wouldn,t bonnets and tobacco for clay pipes and cigarettes be considered fripperies for an unfortunate class too?

i don,t believe the commercialist marketing machine has changed much since 1888. with drinking comes pubs and clubs... comes smoking and makeup and fancy accessories. even in the poorest districts you always find a hair dresser, and hair products, and young women with fluorescent green or neon purple or aqualuscent blue hair. mary had a tub, a water source, a room, a boyfriend who gives her money, and girlfriends... the option was definitely available to her!

still... your case is stronger miss marple. she is considered to be irish by heritage, which makes the genetic chance of her having naturally ginger hair greater than the rest of the world,s average.

--------------------------

again...Ripperologist #148. debra arif put a side-by-side comparative of the sketches of mary jane kelly and elizabeth prater, and i can see the similarities, so maybe there is room for confusion on maxwell,s part.

what i need to reread is if there is any telling of the story where"the döppelganger" responds to being called "Mary" by mrs maxwell, and...
wondering thru why none of the residents of dorset street called ,,bullshit,, on mrs maxwell,s story... as in, prater or another woman coming forward and saying "un unh, carrie... that was me you were talking with that morning, not Ginger"

[miss marple]

Mary was of Irish Heritage and probably had red hair. Her hair was probably an advantage when she started whoring.
I used to Henna my hair, It is a long and labourious process, the cost of Henna would have been above Mary's budget, at least a shillng, and can you seriously see her sitting around for hours in the cold while the henna dried and then rinsing it out with a freezing pump. It takes ages to rinse out on long hair. amd it dos not always take, you have to add lemon juice. Mary seemed to spend any money on drink, as did the others, there was no spare money. Such fripperies were not necessary in the East End.

Actresses Singers and high class prostitutes used henna and make up but they had access to money, maids, and bathrooms with hot water. The conditions in the East End were so far removed from the that life as to be on a different planet!

Miss Marple

[ChrisGeorge]

Fix

Hi Robert.
I started a thread a while back on Kelly's hair colour, but I don't think there's enough info to say. Only one report I found described the actual colour, which I believe was 'light'. But Barnett did say she was nicknamed "Ginger"

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9819

Hi Josh and Robert

The late British Ripperologist Des McKenna noted that a number of the unfortunates tinted their hair with "henna" a common hair dye of the day that imparted a red tint to the woman's hair. See http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-desmary.html

Also see http://www.hennaforhair.com/history/patti.html.

Best regards

Chris

[Robert St Devil]

Fix

Hi Robert.
I started a thread a while back on Kelly's hair colour, but I don't think there's enough info to say. Only one report I found described the actual colour, which I believe was 'light'. But Barnett did say she was nicknamed "Ginger"

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9819

would you think her hair would be an identifying feature for caroline maxwell?

[Joshua Rogan]

Good point about the ginger beer bottles. Richard!

[richardnunweek]

Hi.Joshua,
According to a hearsay account from Kelly's landlord's great granddaughter, Mary's hair was red, thus Ginger may be relevant, she also obviously liked Ginger beer, as some was in her room.
Regards Richard.

[Joshua Rogan]

Fix

was mary,s hair color naturally ginger, or was it dyed? i,d be interested to know what color Caroline Maxwell saw. i thought i remember something about mary having a shawl over her head when Maxwell sees her but i could be misremembering.

Hi Robert.
I started a thread a while back on Kelly's hair colour, but I don't think there's enough info to say. Only one report I found described the actual colour, which I believe was 'light'. But Barnett did say she was nicknamed "Ginger"

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9819

[Darryl Kenyon]

Mrs Maxwell says - She spoke to Kelly, asking her why she was up so early, to which Kelly replied that she had the horrors of drink upon her as she had been drinking for some days previously. Mrs Maxwell suggested she go and have a drink in 'Mrs Ringers' (The Britannia), but Kelly replied that she had already done so and brought it up, pointing to some vomit in the road. If this is the case wouldn't the stomach be virtually empty, no potatoes, no fish. And i can't see her buying/eating/cooking a meal in that state. Also Maurice Lewis says he saw her in the Horn of Plenty and The Brittania with various people. Why didn't these people come forward to corroborate his story [ or anyone else in these pubs for that matter ]. Her body was only found a few hours later, and the news would have spread like wildfire.

[Robert St Devil]

was mary,s hair color naturally ginger, or was it dyed? i,d be interested to know what color Caroline Maxwell saw. i thought i remember something about mary having a shawl over her head when Maxwell sees her but i could be misremembering.

[c.d.]

Understood, Herlock.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Any number of scenarios can be put forth where the murdered woman in Mary's room is not actually Mary but someone else. But if we employ Occam's Razor the default position would have to be that it was in fact Mary. I have not seen any actual evidence to the contrary so any scenario challenging that has to be taken as pure speculation until proven otherwise.

c.d.

Absolutely c.d. Couldn't agree more. It was just a bit of an exercise to 'cover' the Maxwell statement.

Regards
Herlock

[c.d.]

Any number of scenarios can be put forth where the murdered woman in Mary's room is not actually Mary but someone else. But if we employ Occam's Razor the default position would have to be that it was in fact Mary. I have not seen any actual evidence to the contrary so any scenario challenging that has to be taken as pure speculation until proven otherwise.

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi all,

I thought that I'd throw in a 'scenario' here.

We know that MJK allowed other prostitutes to stay at Millers Court with her. I believe that it was one of the reasons mentioned by Joe Barnett for why he'd walked out (as well as not being pleased about her being a prostitute herself.) Let's propose that sometime on the morning of 9th November a woman staying with Mary ( let's call her Miss X ) asks Mary if she can have 'use' of the room for an hour or so. Mary goes out, probably for a drink. When she gets back she find that her room has been turned into a slaughterhouse. She staggers back out into the street. Shortly after she bumps into Caroline Maxwell. Maxwell sees that Kelly has thrown up but an in shock Kelly blames the drink. She's in shock, doesn't know what to do so she goes for a drink. Maybe she sought out and found Joe Barnett for advice/help. She tells him that she could never sleep in that room again. Joe tells her that if she goes to the police she'll be asked to identify the body (the thought of doing this horrifies Mary.) Maybe Joe came up with a plan or maybe it was a joint effort: don't go back. From how you've described the body they won't know it's not you. Plus you'll get away with your rent arrears. Move away, change your name, move on.
The police call on Barnett. He identifies the body as Mary.

Just a scenario chaps. Who knows though?

Regards
Herlock

[JadenCollins]

Hi,
It was recently mentioned, that we never really have had a thread, that was dedicated to this .
So I have started one.
I have always believed Mrs Maxwell , and to a point other witnesses, that claimed to have seen the woman Kelly that morning.
How about you?
Regards Richard.

I think Maxwell was telling the truth. Apparently she wasn't the only one claiming to have seen Mary that morning.

Mary was clearly in a hurry. I don't believe she's the one they found at millers court, it could've been an acquaintance, someone she lent her room to?

Anyways, that's my opinion...


Jaden

[richardnunweek]

Hi Abby,
Lizzie was not called at the inquest.
Regards Richard,