Was Mary Kelly killed in daylight hours.?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
What are the odds that a letter should have been sent to a police force , with the address of Mrs Maxwell, exactly one week prior to the murder in Millers court, This address was exactly opposite Millers court. and it is tremendous hindsight by someone, [ don't you agree?].
This happened, and resident of that address Mrs Maxwell, became one of the most referred too witness , in the whole Ripper case.
Was this a mere coincidence , or did the puzzle of Millers court lay beyond the door of that establishment?.
Regards Richard.

[John G]

I don't think Caroline Maxwell's evidence can be easily discounted. And Walter Dew stated that her reputation was excellent, and I doubt he would have made similar comments about the other witnesses. Of course, it may have been a case of mistaken identity, but why should her evidence be considered less reliable than any other witness?

The main reason to question her evidence is that her alleged sighting is later than than the time of death estimates. However, they should be taken with a pinch of salt. For instance, they ranged over a huge period-1:00am to 6:00am-indicating that the Victorian medicos didn't have a clue.

In fact, we now know that time of death estimates cannot be accuately ascertained, and the advice of the Forensic Science Regulator is that modern forensic pathologists shouldn't even attempt to do so.

As an aside, in the celebrated Wallace murder case of the 1930s Dr McCall, a professor of forensic medicine, initially estimated time of death as 8:00pm. He then inexplicably changed this to 6:00pm, without giving reasons as to why. Interestingly, if this latter estimate is correct then, between 6:30 and 6:45, a witness must have had a conversation with a corpse!

I also don't understand why the coroner cautioned Maxwell that her evidence was different to that of other witnesses. I mean, none of the other witnesses gave supporting evidence, as their alleged sightings were at different times, so in effect everyone's evidence differed.

[Karl]

But you probably also know plenty of people who are adamant they are right, even when they're not.

No I do not!

[GUT]

She knew her well enough to be on speaking terms with her, which suggests she ought to know her name. Alternatively, if she was one of those acquaintances we all have whose names we are supposed to know but their names just hasn't stuck (at least I hope I'm not the only one with such acquaintances), she would not have been adamant that it was Mary she saw - as she would then question her own limited knowledge. "I thought she was Mary Jane Kelly." I've had such experiences myself (with different names, mind), but then I had the good sense to simply take in the new knowledge in silence and keep my mouth shut.

But you probably also know plenty of people who are adamant they are right, even when they're not.

[Karl]

Or Maxwell didn't know Mary Kelly as well as she thought and the girl she saw was someone else. She hadn't "known" her very long anyway.

She knew her well enough to be on speaking terms with her, which suggests she ought to know her name. Alternatively, if she was one of those acquaintances we all have whose names we are supposed to know but their names just hasn't stuck (at least I hope I'm not the only one with such acquaintances), she would not have been adamant that it was Mary she saw - as she would then question her own limited knowledge. "I thought she was Mary Jane Kelly." I've had such experiences myself (with different names, mind), but then I had the good sense to simply take in the new knowledge in silence and keep my mouth shut.

[MysterySinger]

Hi Karl.
Absolutely.
Mrs M, had plenty of time before the inquest to have realised her error, if indeed she had done.?
So either she saw Mary Kelly. in which case, T.O.D was out.?
Or she deliberately lied , for five minutes of fame, or to protect someone.?
Regards Richard.

Or Maxwell didn't know Mary Kelly as well as she thought and the girl she saw was someone else. She hadn't "known" her very long anyway.

[Karl]

What are the sources for Mary's height, anyway? We know she was very tall for a woman, and the height given is even taller than that of the average male at the time. The autopsy report doesn't mention it, and it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the inquest at first glance either. If the hypothesis that the victim was not MJK is correct, then it would be highly unlikely that the corpse would be as tall as Mary - unless one supposes Mary (and Joe) actively searched for a lookalike and were indeed the actual murderers of this particular victim. But that crosses the border into conspiracy territory. So how tall was Mary Jane Kelly, and how do we know? And how tall was the body, and how do we know?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Karl.
Absolutely.
Mrs M, had plenty of time before the inquest to have realised her error, if indeed she had done.?
So either she saw Mary Kelly. in which case, T.O.D was out.?
Or she deliberately lied , for five minutes of fame, or to protect someone.?
Regards Richard.

[Karl]

Hi,
The most likely explanation is Maxwell was mistaken , and she got confused with that of Lizzie Albrook, who was a court resident, and worked in a Dorset street lodging house.
At the inquest , Maxwell states, she saw the dead woman in the lodging house,, which could suggest wrong identification.
Another more sinister theory, could develop from the letter police receive a week earlier, penned from Mrs Maxwell's address..a coincidence,?
Regards Richard.

Hmmm... Even if Maxwell had made a mistake about which woman was dead, by the time of the inquest the identity of the victim had been established as MJK - and it was MJK that Maxwell was adamant she had seen. Not sure how she could be mistaken about the identity.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The most likely explanation is Maxwell was mistaken , and she got confused with that of Lizzie Albrook, who was a court resident, and worked in a Dorset street lodging house.
At the inquest , Maxwell states, she saw the dead woman in the lodging house,, which could suggest wrong identification.
Another more sinister theory, could develop from the letter police receive a week earlier, penned from Mrs Maxwell's address..a coincidence,?
Regards Richard.

[harry]

If we begin with the premise that Kelly was seen alive by Maxwell and Lewis,and that a woman other than Kelly was murdered in Kelly's room,there is still the question of when the victim was killed,and the heading appears to suggest the killing took place in daylight hours.

[etenguy]

Hi,
It was recently mentioned, that we never really have had a thread, that was dedicated to this .
So I have started one.
I have always believed Mrs Maxwell , and to a point other witnesses, that claimed to have seen the woman Kelly that morning.
How about you?
Regards Richard.

i too think it unlikely that Maxwell and Lewis deliberately lied about seeing MJK. It is of course possible that they were mistaken. Given this did not happen with any other victim though, we perhaps should start with the premise that they are telling the truth. Especially as two independent witnesses say they saw her mid morning.

That would leave us with the options
both were mistaken
there was a similar looking woman who was mistaken for MJK
the time of death was wrongly stated
or It was not MJK who was murdered.

MJK was identified by her eyes and her ear by Barnett - which seems an odd form of identification, but McCarthy also identified her - not sure on what basis. It is possible it was they who were wrong.

[John Wheat]

Hi,
It was recently mentioned, that we never really have had a thread, that was dedicated to this .
So I have started one.
I have always believed Mrs Maxwell , and to a point other witnesses, that claimed to have seen the woman Kelly that morning.
How about you?
Regards Richard.

I agree Richard.

[David Orsam]

Personally I find this hard to believe, but someone just PM'd me, stating on good authority that you and Pierre are one and the same person.

Well if someone tells you that Simon, and it's something that you would like to believe, then I imagine you will happily believe it without requiring any verification.

Just like you swallowed that cobblers about Millers Court having the hallmarks of a Special Branch operation without any verification.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Personally I find this hard to believe, but someone just PM'd me, stating on good authority that you and Pierre are one and the same person.

Regards,

Simon