Was Mary Kelly killed in daylight hours.?

[Batman]

Well there are three obvious possibilities:

1. To burn something.
2. To generate heat.
3. To generate light.

As for the third possibility, you seem assume that there was 'daylight' inside Kelly's room whose windows were covered on a cloudy November morning. I'm not aware of any evidence which tells us whether it was dark or light in Kelly's room that morning.

I accept all the possibilities. The official one is to generate light. Inspector Abberline's inquest testimony, 12 November 1888, quoted in Evans and Rumbelow, p. 185; Evans and Skinner, pp. 375–376 and Marriott, p. 177; Fido, p. 95 Meaning it was night time when she was murdered. Curtains were drawn.

that's the first time Ive heard this take on it-he threw clothes on the fire to put it out to make it dark.

whats your thinking here-please expound.

Well because the kettle spout and handle melted he wasn't really attending to the fire to keep a light. He seemed to have blitzed the fire grate with something that burned very hot and melted items around it.

There were traces of a large fire having been kept up in the grate, so much so that it had melted the spout of a kettle off. We have since gone through the ashes in the fireplace; there were remnants of clothing, a portion of a brim of a hat, and a skirt, and it appeared as if a large quantity of women's clothing had been burnt.

The fire was still burning when they arrived in the morning.

I think he grabbed a pile of clothes and threw them onto the fire. Then blitzed her in the bed by pulling the sheet over her.

[Michael W Richards]

the articles describe entirely separate examinations Joshua.
The Times, on Saturday 10th, cannot refer to the autopsy of Saturday morning. The Times is a morning paper and so goes to print overnight. It is out on the streets long before the official autopsy began.
The quote I provided refers to Friday.

Since Phillips says that he waited until 1:30 to enter the room, and his "arrival" on the scene was at 11:15, his "examination" prior to Bonds arrival would amount to this;

" On the door being opened it knocked against a table which was close to the left-hand side of the bedstead, and the bedstead was close against the wooden partition. The mutilated remains of a woman were lying two- thirds over, towards the edge of the bedstead, nearest the door. Deceased had only an under- linen garment upon her, and by subsequent examination I am sure the body had been removed, after the injury which caused death, from that side of the bedstead which was nearest to the wooden partition previously mentioned. The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner. "

Seems that the examination was likely just an inspection.

"Dr Phillips, on his arrival, carefully examined the body of the dead woman, and later on made a second examination in company with Dr Bond, from Westminster, Dr Gordon Brown, from the City, Dr Duke from Spitalfields, and Dr Phillip's assistant".

[David Orsam]

If you mean to say is that there is no reason to doubt her, you might start with what proof exists that she knew Mary Kelly at all. Spoiler alert..there is none.

I'm going to have to spoil your spoiler by telling you that this isn't correct.

Maxwell gave evidence under oath that she knew Mary Kelly. There is no evidence to the contrary.

[Michael W Richards]

That's not the case Abby. I always argue on the side of there being nothing to prove Maxwell wrong, which is a different matter entirely.

If you mean to say that there are no other reports, for the same time as Maxwell gives, that suggest someone else saw Mary dead in bed from the window at that time, then you are right. If you mean to say is that there is no reason to doubt her, you might start with what proof exists that she knew Mary Kelly at all. Spoiler alert..there is none. Nor is there any proof George knew Mary. The same might be said for Elizabeth and Mary Ann, but their time at that location and proximity to Mary, and the fact that all court residents come in and out of the same narrow tunnel suggests that they would have encountered each other at some point.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon. The Tines on the 12th carries a very similar report, but makes clear it refers to the Saturday post-mortem examination.
"As early as half past 7 on Saturday morning, Dr. Phillips, assisted by Dr. Bond (Westminster), Dr. Gordon Brown (City), Dr. Duke (Spitalfields) and his (Dr. Phillips') assistant, made an exhaustive post-mortem examination of the body at the mortuary adjoining Whitechapel Church."

the articles describe entirely separate examinations Joshua.
The Times, on Saturday 10th, cannot refer to the autopsy of Saturday morning. The Times is a morning paper and so goes to print overnight. It is out on the streets long before the official autopsy began.
The quote I provided refers to Friday.

[David Orsam]

Thanks David
Of course. you didn't answer my last question-do you know something we don't on this? : )

Of course not!

[Abby Normal]

... so night.

that's the first time Ive heard this take on it-he threw clothes on the fire to put it out to make it dark.

whats your thinking here-please expound.

[Abby Normal]

That's not the case Abby. I always argue on the side of there being nothing to prove Maxwell wrong, which is a different matter entirely.

Thanks David
Of course. you didn't answer my last question-do you know something we don't on this? : )

[David Orsam]

Why did JtR throw clothes on the fire if it was daylight?

Well there are three obvious possibilities:

1. To burn something.
2. To generate heat.
3. To generate light.

As for the third possibility, you seem assume that there was 'daylight' inside Kelly's room whose windows were covered on a cloudy November morning. I'm not aware of any evidence which tells us whether it was dark or light in Kelly's room that morning.

[Batman]

That's not the case Abby. I always argue on the side of there being nothing to prove Maxwell wrong, which is a different matter entirely.

Why did JtR throw clothes on the fire if it was daylight?

[David Orsam]

you always seem to argue on the side of Maxwell being correct.

That's not the case Abby. I always argue on the side of there being nothing to prove Maxwell wrong, which is a different matter entirely.

[Abby Normal]

When you say 'based on personal experience' Abby, do you mean you have examined the contents of your stomach to ensure it is empty in all those circumstances? Or is what you say based on just a feeling?

Is there any medical evidence to support what you say?



I would venture to suggest that if one thing is for sure it is neither of those things.

We are talking about a prostitute in 1888 and the kind of middle class affections that you speculate about here do not seem to have any basis in fact and, speaking personally, I have no problem at all with her either heading back to a pub or having sex shortly after vomiting.

Hi David

When you say 'based on personal experience' Abby, do you mean you have examined the contents of your stomach to ensure it is empty in all those circumstances? Or is what you say based on just a feeling?

yeah-just a "gut" feeling

We are talking about a prostitute in 1888 and the kind of middle class affections that you speculate about here do not seem to have any basis in fact and, speaking personally, I have no problem at all with her either heading back to a pub or having sex shortly after vomiting.

alcohol poisoning knows know class, sex, vocation or time period I'm sure.

David
you always seem to argue on the side of Maxwell being correct. and youre right-based on the evidence on record-there is nothing to refute it.
But I just cant help thinking that you might know something. You got anything up your sleeve on this one?

[Batman]

JtK threw clothes on the fire to plunge the place into darkness...

... so night.

[David Orsam]

Yes Pat, the sequence of events is distributed across various newspapers.

"Dr Phillips, on his arrival, carefully examined the body of the dead woman, and later on made a second examination in company with Dr Bond, from Westminster, Dr Gordon Brown, from the City, Dr Duke from Spitalfields, and Dr Phillip's assistant."
Times, 10 Nov.

So we see mention of two examinations on Friday.

"Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of police, soon arrived, and was followed by Dr. Bond, of Westminster, divisional surgeon of the A division, Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburgh-square, and two or three other surgeons. They made a preliminary examination of the body and sent for a photographer, who made several photographs of the remains."
Morning Advertiser, 10 Nov.

This account from the Star fails to mention the photographer.
"Dr. Phillips, on his arrival, carefully examined the body of the dead woman, and later on again made a second examination in company with Dr. Bond, from Westminster, Dr. Gordon Brown, from the City, Dr. Duke, from Spitalfields, and Dr. Phillips's assistant."

As I thought, the source of your belief that the Dr Phillips conducted two examinations is the press. The same press who, you told us earlier in this thread, were not allowed in Millers Court, "so a Times reporter could hardly have overheard the Doctor, much less interviewed him."

The quotes you have posted are inconsistent with each other. In the Times, Phillips makes one 'careful' examination on his own and then a second examination with other doctors. In the Morning Advertiser, all the doctors together make a 'preliminary examination' then send for the photographer. The Star does no more than repeat what was in the Times so I'm not sure why you have quoted it.

Given that Phillips refers to entering the room at 1.30 but then mentions his 'subsequent examination' I would have thought it more likely that the photographer came in shortly after 1.30pm (before the body was touched) before all the doctors, with Bond, commenced an examination at 2pm.

[David Orsam]

hi david
since mary Kelly said she was sick from drinking lets stick with throwing up from drinking. I know from personal experience that there are basically three types of throwing up caused by drinking:

1. Throwing up immediate from doing a shot, chugging a beer, etc. its immediate and does not seem to empty the entire contents. Usually just one "heave".

2. Throwing up from drinking too much in immediate aftermath. usually when one has just recently finished drinking and passed out or trying to go to sleep-getting "head spins". usually one or two heaves-probably empties the stomach, or most of it.

3. Throwing up from "alcohol poisoning". Its like food poisoning, and may not happen till one wakes up after heavy drinking. Multiple stomach heaves over the course of a couple hours. So much so that the heaves will eventually produce nothing but small amounts of liquid. Stomach contents definitely emptied.

I would venture that given the circumstances Mary was maybe experiencing 2 but probably number three.

When you say 'based on personal experience' Abby, do you mean you have examined the contents of your stomach to ensure it is empty in all those circumstances? Or is what you say based on just a feeling?

Is there any medical evidence to support what you say?

One thing for sure, is that in any of those conditions, I doubt she would head BACK to the pub (from which she had said she just come and had a drink). and certainly in no condition to want to solicate to have sex IMHO. Therefor I see Maxwells statement of seeing her shortly back at the pub to be most problematic.

I would venture to suggest that if one thing is for sure it is neither of those things.

We are talking about a prostitute in 1888 and the kind of middle class affections that you speculate about here do not seem to have any basis in fact and, speaking personally, I have no problem at all with her either heading back to a pub or having sex shortly after vomiting.