Was Mary Kelly killed in daylight hours.?

[David Orsam]

Don't be petty David, from the roof they could see who enters the room & when.

There's nothing petty about my point, Jon, it goes to the very heart of what you are trying to say. If a reporter on the roof can't see into the room, he can't possibly know what Dr Phillips is doing in there can he? Therefore, he can't know if he is carrying out a 'preliminary examination' or not, can he? So he can only be speculating can't he?

[David Orsam]

No-one tells us what happened inside the room, only Phillips at the inquest.

And Bond in his report. As for Phillips, he doesn't refer to any kind of 'preliminary examination' but only refers to a single 'subsequent examination' (i.e. subsequent to his entry at 1.30pm).

[David Orsam]

Not all accounts mention the photographer, not all accounts mention two examinations. Do you need me to take you by the hand through this?

Yes please. If there are any more reports which mention two examinations please identify them. So far, you have only provided a single unsourced press report which suggests that there were two separate examinations conducted in the room that morning. Against that, you have provided another newspaper report which suggests that there was only one examination, involving many doctors.

How do you know which account is correct?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Let's look at this:

(a) A person lives in an area of London.
(b) Everyone who lives in the same area must recognize that person.

I'm afraid that (b) just does not follow (a). It doesn't follow in 2017 nor did it follow in 1888. It's nothing more than an assumption, not based on any evidence whatsoever, either in general or specifically about Mary Jane Kelly, of whom there is no reason to think that any more than a small number people in the locality even knew who she was.

Does this include Caroline Maxwell ? spoke to her twice in the four months she says she knew her, hadn't seen Mary for about three weeks. Not exactly close neighbours. And if you say she still knew her well enough to identify her that morning then the same could be said for any number of people who lived in Dorset St who had only spoken to Mary the odd time she lived at Millers Court.

[David Orsam]

The one that takes place before the post-mortem. Clearly (to most people) a post-mortem is a legal definition which describes an accepted process, of which a preliminary exam. is not.

All you are saying here is that a 'preliminary examination' is not a post-mortem. But I want to know what it actually is.

A post-mortem is also an examination and Phillips and Bond only speak of carrying out an examination. I still don't know what you mean by 'preliminary examination'. Do you mean a purely visual examination? Or are you saying that Phillips actually touched the body?

If Phillips examined the body before the arrival of the photographer then the photograph we see of Kelly on the bed may not be as the killer left it but shows the body after the examination. Is that right?

Personally, I think that the police and doctor(s) would have had the sense to let the photographer take his snaps before anyone touched the body. You?

[David Orsam]

Does this include Caroline Maxwell ? spoke to her twice in the four months she says she knew her, hadn't seen Mary for about three weeks. Not exactly close neighbours. And if you say she still knew her well enough to identify her that morning then the same could be said for any number of people who lived in Dorset St who had only spoken to Mary the odd time she lived at Millers Court.

I'm not saying that she knew her well enough to identify her that morning. That is what she said in her evidence.

What is it that you are saying Darryl?

Are you saying that if I have spoken to a neighbour only twice that means I don't know them?

Or are you saying that if I know a neighbour who I have spoken to twice then everyone else in the vicinity must know them too?

I fail to see any logic or reality here whatsoever.

[David Orsam]

The press called it a preliminary examination because it came before the post-mortem at 2:00 pm., the one not mentioned at the inquest.

But we come back to the simple question: how did the press know what happened in the room?

[Darryl Kenyon]

David you said that - there is no reason to think that any more than a small number people in the locality even knew who she was. The point is if Caroline Maxwell knew her well enough to be on first name terms, and identify her after only speaking to her on a couple of occasions the previous four months, then the same could be said of, i would say more than a small number.

[Robert St Devil]

This is an old canard that finally needs to be put to rest. The Lord Mayor's show didn't begin until the early afternoon (and not in Whitechapel). No-one would have been 'milling around' in Dorset Street, or anywhere else in London for that matter, at any time between 8-9am because of the Lord Mayor's Show. It was only a public holiday for City of London workers, not a national holiday.

aside, was there any celebration planned for Edward VII birthday that day?

[Varqm]

After several days,at least up to the inquest, the police were still undecided as to the time of murder although they were leaning towards around 4:00 am..
When Maxwell was allowed to speak in the inquest-the police cannot yet dismiss her as we do now, she was warned.Most of what we know now is probably
the same as what they knew then.

It was most likely just weighing in on what they knew,including what police discovered after the inquest or none.The lurking man,the cry as if from the
court,the medical estimated time of death - for two estimates, 1:00 Am to 6:00 am if I remember correctly,against Maxwell's statement which was
uncorroborated,from people aound Dorset st.,from anybody coming forward (Maurice lewis was doubtful because of the years knowing Kelly),or from Britannia.
Also possibly taken into consideration was the amount of gossip and false information and maybe also Hutch's statement.Even without Hutch's statement
it's to me safe to say only a fool would have chosen Maxwell's version.It had to be decided,there can only be one murder time.

[David Orsam]

David you said that - there is no reason to think that any more than a small number people in the locality even knew who she was. The point is if Caroline Maxwell knew her well enough to be on first name terms, and identify her after only speaking to her on a couple of occasions the previous four months, then the same could be said of, i would say more than a small number.

How does my saying that only a small number of people probably knew who Kelly was equate to me saying that Mrs Maxwell was one of those people?

Your own logic just does not work. You are saying that because one person knew Kelly well having spoken to her a couple of times then lots of people must also have known Kelly well. But what if Kelly had not spoken to lots of people in four months? What if she only spoke to a few people during that time?

We just don't know, do we?

[Joshua Rogan]

Are there any reports, other than the Times, of a second woman also sighting Mary on the Friday morning?

[Michael W Richards]

I'm not saying that she knew her well enough to identify her that morning. That is what she said in her evidence.

What is it that you are saying Darryl?

Are you saying that if I have spoken to a neighbour only twice that means I don't know them?

Or are you saying that if I know a neighbour who I have spoken to twice then everyone else in the vicinity must know them too?

I fail to see any logic or reality here whatsoever.

Again, we have no evidence to corroborate that she knew Mary at all, let alone spoke with her twice over some months.

As for Dorset Street, Mayors Day would have nothing to do with how many people would have been out and about on any given morning on Dorset...this was one of the most populated streets due to the number of lodging houses, and there would have been many people on the street by the time "Corrie" says she saw Mary. Yet not one of these people came forward and corroborated her story.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Joshua,

Yes, there's a fantastic story in The Standard, 10th November 1888.

Whether or not it's true is another matter.

Regards,

Simon

[Robert St Devil]

It had to be decided,there can only be one murder time.

do you think the murder and the mutilation happened at the same time? i tend to believe strangulation played a part in these murders.