Was Mary Kelly killed in daylight hours.?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
It was recently mentioned, that we never really have had a thread, that was dedicated to this .
So I have started one.
I have always believed Mrs Maxwell , and to a point other witnesses, that claimed to have seen the woman Kelly that morning.
How about you?
Regards Richard.

[Pcdunn]

I'm very intrigued by this idea that Maxwell told the truth re seeing a shaky Mary Jane in the morning, ever since coming across it depicted as a scene in Alan Moore's "From Hell" graphic novel. It was my introduction to the idea, and I have supported it on a few threads here on Casebook in recent years, but discussion rarely goes anywhere. I think only one other poster is solidly promoting the idea, and haven't seen him/her on here lately.

I also am intrigued by this encounter with Maxwell as possibly being an indication that someone else was killed in Mary Jane's place, and she actually escaped the fate has assigned to her. My attempts to work out a plot for her escape haven't garnered support here.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Mrs Maxwell is a very intriguing character, she could have been.
Mistaken,
Lying.
Truthful.
Mistaken..another young woman that lived in the court , worked in a Dorset street lodging house.Maxwell stated [ meaning Kelly] ''I have seen her about in the lodging house''.
Lying.. A week before Kelly was killed a letter to the Norfolk police , was addressed from Mrs Maxwell's address in Dorset street.The question arises, did she have some motive for saying she saw Mary alive and well at 8-15,am.?
Truthful..She told it as it happened, she saw Kelly [ allegedly deceased] alive and well.
One of the above has to be correct.
Regards Richard.

[Pierre]

Hi,
It was recently mentioned, that we never really have had a thread, that was dedicated to this .
So I have started one.
I have always believed Mrs Maxwell , and to a point other witnesses, that claimed to have seen the woman Kelly that morning.
How about you?
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

This is what I think happened:

00.00-01.00/01.30 Cox seing Kelly go into her room, and Cox hearing Kelly singing.
01.30 Prater going upstairs but seeing no light in Kelly´s room
02.00 approximate TOD (time of death) drawn from the estimation of Dr Bond
03.00 Cox seeing that the light was out in Kelly´s room
03.30-04.00 Sarah Lewis and Prater hearing the scream ”Oh, Murder!” (Prater stating she heard it two or three times on 9 November, 1 time on 12 November) (misremembering)
05.00-05.45 Prater going to The Ten Bells and drinking
08.00 Last possible TOD according to the time frame given by Dr Bond
08.00-08.45 Mrs Maxwell claiming to have seen Kelly on the street (attention seeking)

First analyse question: Which time periods during the night and morning 9 November can be classified as dark time periods and possible light periods?

00.00-01.00/01.30 Cox seing Kelly go into her room, Cox hearing Kelly singing.

Dark time period 1: 01.30-03.00:

01.30 Prater going upstairs but seeing no light in Kelly´s room
03.00 Cox seeing that the light was out in Kelly´s room

Possible light time period 1:

03.30-04.00 Lewis and Prater hearing the scream ”Oh, Murder!” (Prater stating she heard it two or three times on 9 November, 1 time on 12 November)

Dark time period 2:

05.00-05.45 Prater going to The Ten Bells (not stating a word about light or darkness)

Possible light time period 2:

06.30/07.00-08.00 Prater returned
08.00 Last possible TOD (time of death) according to the time frame given by Dr Bond
08.00-08.45 Mrs Maxwell claiming to have seen Kelly on the street

Second analyse question: Is there any evidence in the time frame that supports Dr Bonds estimate?

Dr Bond states that the TOD should be set to 02.00, The time frame for rigor mortis is 6-12 hours after the murder. The last point in time when the murder could have been committed is therefore 08.00. TOD after 08.00 is not possible. Maxwells statment is therefore wrong.

The first dark time period, Dark time period 1, is 01.30-03.00. This period covers Dr Bonds estimate.

When is the first Possible light time period, making it possible for the killer to light a large fire in the grate?

It is not in the first dark time period 1 01.30-03.00. And yet, this is the time period in which Dr Bond places the TOD: at 02.00.

So the first Possible light time period, making it possible for the killer to light a large fire in the grate, is the Possible light time period 1: 03.30-04.00.

The hypothesis is, if Dr Bond was right, that this is the time period when the killer lit the large fire in the grate.

Cheers, Pierre

[Pcdunn]

Hi,
Mrs Maxwell is a very intriguing character, she could have been.
Mistaken,
Lying.
Truthful.
Mistaken..another young woman that lived in the court , worked in a Dorset street lodging house.Maxwell stated [ meaning Kelly] ''I have seen her about in the lodging house''.
Lying.. A week before Kelly was killed a letter to the Norfolk police , was addressed from Mrs Maxwell's address in Dorset street.The question arises, did she have some motive for saying she saw Mary alive and well at 8-15,am.?
Truthful..She told it as it happened, she saw Kelly [ allegedly deceased] alive and well.
One of the above has to be correct.
Regards Richard.

Very logical, Richard, thank you. Let's look at these possibilities:

Mistaken-- but she persisted in saying she had definitely seen MJK alive on the street in morning light, no matter how often she was warned that her story was different from the evidence. Why was she so certain that she had seen Mary Jane Kelly, no matter how many police and inquest officials cautioned her about the disreprencies? A possibility might be the human tendency to not want to admit one has made a mistake, in the first place. Another would be that she was firm in her belief she had seen MJK, when she actually had not.

Lying-- this would tie in with Pierre's dismissal of Maxwell as an "attention-seeker", to judge from his parenthetical comment in his long time-line post. That is an easy conclusion, but doesn't really take into account that there could be some other reason behind Maxwell wanting the police to think Kelly was alive and well. The letter is an oddity, certainly. It was sent from her address-- does this mean someone in her household wrote it? If so, does this mean that someone was a) a hoaxer or b) a murderer? Did Maxwell know either of these details? If so, she could be protecting him/her. (Or herself, if Maxwell authored the letter.)

Truthful-- well, that's the kicker, isn't it, since it could throw off all the previous knowledge of this case, including the estimated time of death. Arguments against her being correct that I've read in other discussions are:
-- Joe identified the corpse.
-- The doctor's time of death is far earlier than Maxwell's story would allow.
-- If Mary lived through the early morning and went out, the time frame for her to visit the pub, encounter Maxwell after being sick, recover, go out again and end up locating another client and bringing him back to her place is too tight to fit everything in. Is this true?

[kjab3112]

Unfortunately we do not have the findings behind which the time of death estimates were made.

We do know MJK was dead and mutilated with no assailant around by 1045.
The first assessment by a doctor was three hours later.

If the TOD estimate was by cooling, a cold November morning with massive blood loss and denudement of flesh and opening of the peritoneal cavity would have accelerated temperature loss (and hence overestimated time since death)

If TOD is from rigor mortis, we now have evidence for full rigidity to be in place by as little as three hours (see Derrick Pounders lecture notes), rather than the six plus quoted by Pierre.

I cannot see insect evidence being used (although known and referred to by Doyle the larvae are not apparent until over one day)

Stomach contents is now considered too variable to be of any practical use.

So although Maxwell may be correct in her statement, it is by no means certain. The same also applies to Bond/Phillips.

Best wishes

Paul

[GUT]

Not just Caroline Maxwell, Maurice Lewis claimed to have seen her that morning too, so are they both wrong???

Both mistaken

Both lying

Both just glory hunters

Both just idiots

[richardnunweek]

Hi Pcdunn,
I will attempt to unravel these three,
Mistaken..Back in the 1970's I read a article that allegedly had Mrs Maxwell saying the following. ''Her eyes looked queer , as if suffering from a heavy cold''
This was referring to her sighting of Mary around 8.15 am on the Friday morning.
However I can find no record of these words in any published work, only the wording from Mccormick's publication ''All muffled up , as in cold.''
I definitely read such a article , and the words have stayed with me since.
What interests me is George Hutchinson's quote, ''Oh I have lost my handkerchief ''
This was heard at approx 2.30 am Friday 9th.,
My point being if Mary Kelly was killed before Maxwell's sighting. the point about Kelly looking like she was in cold, might go hand in hand with Mary Kelly requiring the use of a handkerchief., and she was unaware of Hutchinson's statement.
Lying..if a deliberate lie, for her to risk giving false information to the police, and lying at the inquest, it was a lot more then ''being in the limelight'', and may imply that she was attempting to give someone a alibi, by suggesting that the victim was not killed during the hours of darkness.
Maxwell's husband was working that night, in the lodging house.
Truth.. Then Mary Kelly was killed most likely by the man seen to be speaking to her outside Ringers, at 8-45 am. he would have been the last recorded sighting of a man seen with the victim.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Gut,
Maurice Lewis stated that he was playing ''Pitch and toss'' in the court around 9.am [ which was illegal] that would suggest that he may have been truthful.
There is also a account that Kelly was with company in Ringers at 10..am , and someone came in , and said she was wanted outside., and apparently went back to her room with that person.
How long would the mutilations have taken, he sliced open Eddowes, and disfigured her in a couple of minutes, or so.?
Regards Richard,

[Wickerman]

Not just Caroline Maxwell, Maurice Lewis claimed to have seen her that morning too, so are they both wrong???

Both mistaken

Both lying

Both just glory hunters

Both just idiots

Hi GUT.

The thing I noticed about M. Lewis's evidence is that he seems to describe what Maxwell did that morning - going for milk.
I tried to figure out just how an error like this could have happened. Either Lewis confused the person the reporter was inquiring about, or the reporter misunderstood who Lewis was talking about.

His story just seems a little odd when we compare it with what Maxwell did.

[Sam Flynn]

How long would the mutilations have taken?

About twenty minutes or so, not allowing for "breaks". Allowing for breaks, I'd say an hour, max.

[MsWeatherwax]

Not just Caroline Maxwell, Maurice Lewis claimed to have seen her that morning too, so are they both wrong???

Both mistaken

Both lying

Both just glory hunters

Both just idiots

Do you really find it hard to believe, GUT?

Anecdotal it might be, but I never fail to be surprised at how much people seem to want to attach themselves to tragedy.

From the recent past, The Moors Murders spring to mind - every year, someone else comes forward claiming to have 'almost' been kidnapped by Brady and Hindley. I doubt the financial rewards are spectacular (at least not in all cases), so there must be other motives even if they are unconscious. A lot of these accounts can be really easily disproved, but I have no doubt that the people concerned actually believe what they are saying.

I'm damned if I can find it, but I read a brilliant study once about the degree that people fill in missing details subconsciously because they're desperate to help the Police in these sort of cases -they don't intend to make things up to begin with, but the brain fills in the gaps in actual knowledge with what the individual witness feels should be there.

I'm actually OK with the time of death being out (it's hardly surprising that the science around this has moved on over the years), but I really struggle with the idea that she was killed in daylight hours.

Regardless of whether she was murdered by JtR or someone else, it would be a hell of a risk to take when the sun was up. How would he have escaped without being noticed? He must have had quite a bit of blood on him, surely?

[Pcdunn]

I'm actually OK with the time of death being out (it's hardly surprising that the science around this has moved on over the years), but I really struggle with the idea that she was killed in daylight hours.

Regardless of whether she was murdered by JtR or someone else, it would be a hell of a risk to take when the sun was up. How would he have escaped without being noticed? He must have had quite a bit of blood on him, surely?

Hmm... Well, maybe that's what the fire was for. He burnt his own clothing, and escaped wearing some of laundry which was in the room. Some have suggested he might even have worn Mary's clothing, which may put a new spin on the Maxwell encounter (if we suppose she met the killer, not MJK.)

Then again, if he was a bed-partner, perhaps he killed while naked, saving his clothes from being bloodied in the first place, so he could walk abroad without traces of his crime on his person.

[Damaso Marte]

Regardless of whether she was murdered by JtR or someone else, it would be a hell of a risk to take when the sun was up. How would he have escaped without being noticed? He must have had quite a bit of blood on him, surely?

I always marvel at people who consider the MJK murder "risky" in comparison to any of the other Whitechapel killings. In my mind it's the least risky murder in the entire series, no matter what time the light was on.

[DJA]

Tend to agree with GUT.

Reckon the yells of "murder" close to 4am indicates Mary Kelly ate her fish and potatoes around 1am,then slept.

Surmise Jack might have been in the room for a bit over an hour before murdering her.

Coal is the likely fuel for the fire.