Was Mary Kelly killed in daylight hours.?

[Wickerman]

Tend to agree with GUT.

Reckon the yells of "murder" close to 4am indicates Mary Kelly ate her fish and potatoes around 1am,then slept.

Surmise Jack might have been in the room for a bit over an hour before murdering her.

Coal is the likely fuel for the fire.

Who could afford coal?
Dried horse dung from the street was often used for fires by the poor.

Though I'm not so sure if it was the first choice by prostitutes, the subsequent aroma might be a bit of a passion killer

[Sam Flynn]

I always marvel at people who consider the MJK murder "risky" in comparison to any of the other Whitechapel killings. In my mind it's the least risky murder in the entire series.

Totally agree.

[c.d.]

Assuming for the sake of argument that Mrs. Maxwell is correct in her time does this tell us anything that we didn't know already?

c.d.

[DJA]

Who could afford coal?
Dried horse dung from the street was often used for fires by the poor.

Though I'm not so sure if it was the first choice by prostitutes, the subsequent aroma might be a bit of a passion killer

Coal would melt the kettle spout off.
Source of funding is the point.

Dried horse dung would have been difficult to obtain,given the weather.
Crikey,even in Melbourne during the 1950s nobody would think of drying and burning the stuff.
Mum used to put it on the garden.

[Pcdunn]

Coal would melt the kettle spout off.
Source of funding is the point.

Dried horse dung would have been difficult to obtain,given the weather.
Crikey,even in Melbourne during the 1950s nobody would think of drying and burning the stuff.
Mum used to put it on the garden.

Cow dung and buffalo (bison) "chips" were much easier to dry in arid Western climates, and were often used by settlers and Natives for their fires.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_animal_dung_fuel

I think horse dung is more moist, and better fertilizer for your Mum's garden, as you said. (Though, as someone with experience at raking the stuff out of the corral and stall, I can attest that equine dung will dry, but crumbles apart more easily.)

[Wickerman]

Coal would melt the kettle spout off.
Source of funding is the point.

Dried horse dung would have been difficult to obtain,given the weather.
Crikey,even in Melbourne during the 1950s nobody would think of drying and burning the stuff.
Mum used to put it on the garden.

Not many gardens in Whitechapel, but plenty of dung.

[DJA]

http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/

[jason_c]

I always marvel at people who consider the MJK murder "risky" in comparison to any of the other Whitechapel killings. In my mind it's the least risky murder in the entire series, no matter what time the light was on.

Another one here who agrees with this. Assuming Kelly was a semi competent prostitute(and she believed regular clients to be her bread and butter) then at least half an hour of privacy were as good as guaranteed between Kelly and her killer. Add the fact it was probably the middle of the night then the chances of the killer being interrupted were small.

[Harry D]

Assuming for the sake of argument that Mrs. Maxwell is correct in her time does this tell us anything that we didn't know already?

c.d.

In the grand scheme of things? Probably not. Some might argue that it rules out certain suspects (Astrakhan Man, Mr. Blotchy) but what's stopping either of them returning later that morning? It also propagates the idea that MJK wasn't the victim found in Miller's Court.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
The most likely morning suspect, was the man who was across the road looking suspicious seen by Mrs Lewis , during the night [ who was not Hutchinson] because Kelly had a long staying visitor, he put off his intentions until he saw her outside Ringers,[ when Maxwell saw him in the morning around 8.45 am].
Regards Richard.

[Bridewell]

I'm pleased that this topic has finally got its own thread. The main evidence for a night-time killing seems to me to be Bond's six hour claim for the onset of rigor mortis. I'm not convinced that this was the accepted view then and it certainly doesn't appear to be so now. In fairness to Bond the margin for error will only have been increased by the great length of time which had elapsed before he had access to what was left of the body. There is also the view that the injuries to MJK would have taken two hours. A friend who is a master joiner told me that the external mutilation could have been done in seconds with a draw knife. That leaves only the internal abominations. It's a crude measure, certainly, but how long does it take a butcher to fillet a pig? Two hours? I wouldn't have thought so.

How hot was the room at the time of death and in the immediate aftermath? We don't know and can only surmise.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/diseases-and-conditions/pathology/rigor-mortis

The above link gives a more modern view of the onset time for rigor as 4 hours. That would not be inconsistent with a TOD between 9am and 10am - and that would not conflict with the eye witness testimony of Maxwell and Lewis.

I don't subscribe to the view that the body was not that of MJK. That's an unnecessary complication and one not supported by the evidence. The fact that the body was grossly mutilated does not justify an assumption that the motive for this was to conceal the identity of the victim. There was no fingerprint technology in the LVP and a change of identity was relatively easy, meaning that MJK could have disappeared very easily by moving to another area and changing her name without the need for a sacrificial lamb to replace her.

[Abby Normal]

Hi,
It was recently mentioned, that we never really have had a thread, that was dedicated to this .
So I have started one.
I have always believed Mrs Maxwell , and to a point other witnesses, that claimed to have seen the woman Kelly that morning.
How about you?
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard
I don't believe her. While I think her sighting possible, and don't rule it out, I think she was mistaken.

Maurice lewis sighting however I totally discount-ther simply isn't enough time from his sighing of her in the bar some time after 10:00 and Bowyers discovery at 11:00 for her to have left with a man, gone back to her place, all that to occur and the killer to get out not being seen. so IMHO we can throw his sighting out.

I have several issues with maxwells sighting:

she claims to know her well, by name, but says she only spoke to her a couple of times before.
The coroner seemed to take issue with her sighting.
I still don't think there was enough time for her sighting also and all to take place before Marys body was discovered at 11:00.
The large fire with burnt clothes, by the killer, indicates a night time killing.
The corroborated screams of murder heard around 4:00am indicate a night time killing.

But the main issue I have with her sighting (and Mary being killed in daylight morning) is the condition mary was in. Someone sick to the point of vomiting in the street is going to be in no condition to solicit prostitution and have sex. No way. Not only that but Mary apparently told her she already had been to the pub for some hair of the dog, but then threw up. So after that she is going to go back to bar again?looking for clients? nope.

I think more than likely, Maxwell, knew someone who she thought was mary.
Probably a transient who was about millers court for a few months and then moved on.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If Maxwell was mistaken , it was most likely with Lizzie Albrook , who apparently worked in Dorset street lodging houses,
''Saw the deceased about the lodging house'' claimed Mrs M, she was young like Mary and may have caused Maxwell to be mixed up, she also lived in Millers court.
Regards Richard.

[Paddy Goose]

That's an interesting thought you have, Richard.

And now we know Elizabeth Prater was the same age as well. And she lived right there. Maybe Mrs Maxwell saw her.

Paddy

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

If you look closely at Dr. Phillips inquest testimony, and compare it with his remarks made in The Times, 12th November, you'll find that Mrs Maxwell wasn't necessarily mistaken about her encounter with Kelly.

Regards,

Simon