"Murder...!" cry

[Robert]

Yes, the sketch makes the room look much bigger than it actually was.

[Wickerman]

They're nearer the fire than the bed, Jon.

Yes the clothes aren't too near the fire, but unless there was a fire guard it would seem sensible.

If I were drying my shoes they would be on the hearth.

BTW, re your illustration : I think MJK might have got a tad suspicious when she saw that her client wasn't even going to remove his hat.

I didn't know what hair style to give him...

[Wickerman]

Yes, the sketch makes the room look much bigger than it actually was.

The floorboards run in the opposite direction in this sketch.
Perhaps we should not put much faith in the accuracy of every detail.


Courtesy of Stewart Evans.

[GUT]

So true. I suspect many of the sketch artists never saw the room, just worked off what they were told.

[Wickerman]

So true. I suspect many of the sketch artists never saw the room, just worked off what they were told.

The press did complain they were not allowed in, so everything we see is artistic license c/w what they were told by others who did see inside like Bowyer, McCarthy, possibly Martin - the photographer, etc.

[GUT]

The press did complain they were not allowed in, so everything we see is artistic license c/w what they were told by others who did see inside like Bowyer, McCarthy, possibly Martin - the photographer, etc.

And then using the photographs themselves at times perhaps.

[Wickerman]

And then using the photographs themselves at times perhaps.

That was not a press photographer, this was a private professional there at the request of Dr. Phillips I think.
From what I understand the photo's were the property of the police and not made public.

[GUT]

That was not a press photographer, this was a private professional there at the request of Dr. Phillips I think.
From what I understand the photo's were the property of the police and not made public.

Yes I know they were police photographers, but may gave made them available to the sketch artists, probably not (given all the complaints about lack of cooperation) but you never know.

[Varqm]

To summarize, your suggestion that she brought a client in is without substantiation and contrary to the way she has lived in that room, your suggestion that arterial spray isnt easily located is incorrect, and your suggestion that people wouldnt undress when going to bed in their own private room is ludicrous.

I agree.The last time known of Kelly is she was in her room.Unless otherwise proven she stayed.There was no noise heard or any indication that Kelly went out exists.And I do not believe the lurking man was an innocent bystander.

As far as the dress goes how certain is it what part of Kelly's dress JTR did not mess with ?

Mr. George Bagster Phillips
Monday, November 12, 1888
(The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, November 13, 1888)

"The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow,
and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion
that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was
inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in
the top right-hand corner."

Dr. Bond's Post Mortem

"The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis"

That does not preclude a client or intruder.

[Robert]

Of course the sketches may be inaccurate. But if we say that the killer threw the clothes on the fire, because he was cold, then why did he not throw Kelly's clothes on too, if they were dry. He may have done, but I doubt it.

[Wickerman]

Mrs Prater.
-I lay down on the bed at 1.30, in my clothes. I fell asleep directly,

Mrs Cox.
-I laid on the bed in my clothes, but did not sleep.....
-I did not undress at all. I did not sleep at all. I must have heard what went on in the court. I heard no noise or cry of "Murder,".....
(if she didn't hear the scream - she fell asleep)

Sarah Lewis.
- I fell asleep in the chair, I woke at half-past three.

Michael, by far the majority of the poor who lived in hovels like those in Millers Court slept on the floor, in their clothes. Those who had chairs slept on them, often leaning over on a table. When the tenant had a bed, which was in many cases only a frame with a well worn mattress, the family would huddle up on the bed to keep warm - all fully clothed as bed sheets were a luxury to many.

In Lodging-houses those who rented a bed wouldn't dare undress, if they did someone would pinch their clothes in the night. Those who couldn't afford a bed slept on a bench with their arms hanging over a rope, dozens of men sat side-by-side, all fully clothed.

Regardless what your living conditions were, the poor and dossers alike were accustomed to keeping their clothes on, day and night.

You might benefit from a few good books that explain just how bad the living conditions were for people of the East End in this period. Very few had a room to themselves, in many cases more than one family shared a 10 x 10 ft room, most sleeping on the floor - all fully clothed.

This is how LUDICROUS it was in the real world, a touch of reality wouldn't go amiss with you Michael.
Read some books....

[Sam Flynn]

I agree.The last time known of Kelly is she was in her room.Unless otherwise proven she stayed.There was no noise heard or any indication that Kelly went out exists

The partly-digested fish in her stomach might suggest that she went out to buy food within 2 hours of her death which, if the cry of "Murder!" was indeed Kelly's, would mean that she went out again some 2-3 hours after she was last seen in Miller's Court. Unless someone surprised her by bringing her an impromptu fish supper, I suppose.

Having said that, we don't hear of any fish bones being found on the premises; maybe they went unreported, maybe they ended up on the fire, or perhaps Kelly ate her last meal on the way back from the chippy (something I've done many times).

[Sam Flynn]

The floorboards run in the opposite direction in this sketch.
Perhaps we should not put much faith in the accuracy of every detail.


Courtesy of Stewart Evans.

In mitigation, the Reynolds drawing looks to be very well-observed, and smacks of authenticity. The one above looks decidedly generic to the point of being made up... unless that copper really was sodomising the photographer.

[Michael W Richards]

Mrs Prater.
-I lay down on the bed at 1.30, in my clothes. I fell asleep directly,

Mrs Cox.
-I laid on the bed in my clothes, but did not sleep.....
-I did not undress at all. I did not sleep at all. I must have heard what went on in the court. I heard no noise or cry of "Murder,".....
(if she didn't hear the scream - she fell asleep)

Sarah Lewis.
- I fell asleep in the chair, I woke at half-past three.

Michael, by far the majority of the poor who lived in hovels like those in Millers Court slept on the floor, in their clothes. Those who had chairs slept on them, often leaning over on a table. When the tenant had a bed, which was in many cases only a frame with a well worn mattress, the family would huddle up on the bed to keep warm - all fully clothed as bed sheets were a luxury to many.

In Lodging-houses those who rented a bed wouldn't dare undress, if they did someone would pinch their clothes in the night. Those who couldn't afford a bed slept on a bench with their arms hanging over a rope, dozens of men sat side-by-side, all fully clothed.

Regardless what your living conditions were, the poor and dossers alike were accustomed to keeping their clothes on, day and night.

You might benefit from a few good books that explain just how bad the living conditions were for people of the East End in this period. Very few had a room to themselves, in many cases more than one family shared a 10 x 10 ft room, most sleeping on the floor - all fully clothed.

This is how LUDICROUS it was in the real world, a touch of reality wouldn't go amiss with you Michael.
Read some books....

Thanks for the advice Jon, but Ive read many books specifically on the conditions within the East End, and I can say that its rather unusual to have a single female as the sole occupant when soliciting is the sole occupation to get a room in her own name. This is not a lodging house scenario as you've portrayed it, its a private room.

The crux is that she was in fact undressed for bed, so your objection stems from the fact that you think she was entertaining a client after 1:30am, something which is not supported by the condition of the room at that time,...silent and dark, and something which could only be accurate if we believe witnesses who we have no proof knew Mary Kelly either by sight or by name before this event. I use the witnesses that did in fact know her, one that passed her very room a few times that night....even after 1:30am. She didn't see Mary Kelly after 11:45pm Thursday night.

One who claimed knew her was eventually discredited, and another was warned at the Inquest that her statement did not agree with the others given, by witnesses like Mary Ann Cox.

[Michael W Richards]

The partly-digested fish in her stomach might suggest that she went out to buy food within 2 hours of her death which, if the cry of "Murder!" was indeed Kelly's, would mean that she went out again some 2-3 hours after she was last seen in Miller's Court. Unless someone surprised her by bringing her an impromptu fish supper, I suppose.

Having said that, we don't hear of any fish bones being found on the premises; maybe they went unreported, maybe they ended up on the fire, or perhaps Kelly ate her last meal on the way back from the chippy (something I've done many times).

Sam, if she slept after eating and singing until sometime after 1am, then wouldn't her digestive system slow? Wouldn't a meal taken before 1:30 still be "partially" digested at 3:45am if she had been asleep?