The pail

[Pierre]

Robert,

I would not be surprised in the slightest if that is what it is about.

Steve

Steve, how many items could such a pail have contained do you think?

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi spyglass.

It,s a Pierre thread, so P. is testing ,the hypothesis, against the best suggestions that ripperologists can ,summon up,. If you,re following along, the accomplice(?) might tie in with the rearranged furniture ties in with ,mocking, Lord Mayor,s Dinner ties in with the secret door all tied in with a comment the outgoing Lord Mayor made about the Whitechapel killer in early October. Right now GUTs suggestion of Blotchy,s beer is the best bc it,s an object and not an organ.

My thought on the matter is Pierre,s suspect may have attended or was attending the Lord Mayor Dinner because this person knew the table layout as P. claims.

Hi Robert,

No, I do not think along your lines there.

Regards, Pierre

[Robert St Devil]

Hi spyglass.

It,s a Pierre thread, so P. is testing ,the hypothesis, against the best suggestions that ripperologists can ,summon up,. If you,re following along, the accomplice(?) might tie in with the rearranged furniture ties in with ,mocking, Lord Mayor,s Dinner ties in with the secret door all tied in with a comment the outgoing Lord Mayor made about the Whitechapel killer in early October. Right now GUTs suggestion of Blotchy,s beer is the best bc it,s an object and not an organ.

My thought on the matter is Pierre,s suspect may have attended or was attending the Lord Mayor Dinner because this person knew the table layout as P. claims.

[Elamarna]

Robert,

I would not be surprised in the slightest if that is what it is about.


Steve

[spyglass]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty certain that I have read somewhere that the Police took away a tied up sheet or blanket obtaining objects other than the body and this was assumed to be the other body parts.

Regards

[DJA]

Wonder if that's where the absent heart went.

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Pierre.

Hi Robert,

Is there any evidence for that idea?

Regards, Pierre

Um, there's this from earlier today...

Maybe the transport of the pail to the home of Phillips was connected to Dr Phillips visiting the House of Commons after the murder and Matthews stating that there was an accomplice. {my own emphasis}


Regards, Pierre

[spyglass]

The purpose of this thread relates to an accomplice. Even though I would imagine that something like that would have been brought out at the inquest... it's ultimately about an accomplice. That data being in the sources or "the archive". Not post mortem examination or organ removal. An accomplice.

I believe the question here should have been:

what did Dr Phillips have in the pail that suggested or proved an accomplice?

Well I might be inclined to think that Dr Bond was an accomplice of sorts......although not in the murder of MJK.

[Pierre]

The purpose of this thread relates to an accomplice. Even though I would imagine that something like that would have been brought out at the inquest... it's ultimately about an accomplice. That data being in the sources or "the archive". Not post mortem examination or organ removal. An accomplice.

I believe the question here should have been:

what did Dr Phillips have in the pail that suggested or proved an accomplice?

Hi Robert,

Is there any evidence for that idea?

Regards, Pierre

[Robert St Devil]

The purpose of this thread relates to an accomplice. Even though I would imagine that something like that would have been brought out at the inquest... it's ultimately about an accomplice. That data being in the sources or "the archive". Not post mortem examination or organ removal. An accomplice.

I believe the question here should have been:

what did Dr Phillips have in the pail that suggested or proved an accomplice?

[paul g]

Where did the pail come from?
It is possible that the pail contained the remains of the fire which was a mixture of burnt ashes and body parts allegedly .

[spyglass]

After the murder of Mary Jane Kelly a pail was carried away from the murder site in Millerīs Court.

It was covered with a newspaper but it was not taken to the mortuary. Instead, it was taken to the house of Dr Phillips.

What was in the pail?

Why was it taken to the house of Phillips?



Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre,
He could of course just been taking an empty pail back home, therefore maybe the question should be " what was carried in the pail to the murder scene?

Regards

[DJA]

Mmm. And the house of Phillips was about a ten minutes walk from the mortuary I think. Why not take the pail to the mortuary then, instead of taking it to the house of Phillips?

Mmm indeed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Leonard%27s,_Shoreditch

Google Earth shows the mortuary behind the church.
Numerous photos on the internet.

Phillip's residence was a relatively short walk from London Hospital,Shoreditch Church Mortuary and Sutton's residence at Finsbury Square.

Incidentally, sailorman Hutchinson had a child living with him at one time.
Child's parents resided in Primrose Street.
Phillip's seemed to be involved in gaining a pardon for one of Jack's accomplices.

Mmm......fun with maps

http://spitalfieldslife.com/2013/07/06/lost-spitalfields/

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;399604]

1. He was carring out a pre-autopsy examination of some of the organs, maybe on his own or maybe with other medics.
We know the mortuary was small and cramped and maybe there was more space and light in his home to carry out the examination

Consequence: A lot of post mortems would have to be performed in the homes of doctorīs since the mortuary was so small.

Not a valid hypothesis. The mortuary and the private home were different places.

2. The body was removed first, it is possible that the pall was initially left by mistake and the mortuary had been locked so it was decided to send the remains to Dr Phillips who lived nearby.

Consequence: Need for an explanation about sloppy work in Millerīs Court at a very important murder site.

Not a valid hypothesis.

3. Simon's suggestion: we would need research to attempt to see if there is any record of Dr Phillips having those facilities at his house.

Consequence: A constant problem for many post mortems. It demanded that doctorīs had refrigerators at home and went back and forth from their homes to the mortuary with pails filled with portions from dead bodies. Why not have the refrigerator at the mortuary instead. (Because it was so small...and we have that non valid hypothesis again).

Not a valid hypothesis.

4. He wanted to carry out some "private" examination away from others. Reason unknown, this would require the assistance/cooperation of the police/authorities obviously,

Why?

Regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

But why then take them to Dr. Phillip's private house instead of taking them to the mortuary and put them back into the body where they belonged, if that was what they wanted to do but could not no in Millerīs Court?

Or maybe they did not belong to the body, since they were separated from it?

we appear to have nothing in the sources to answer this, and I fear we are left with little but speculation.

Yes, very problematic and there is no source for it.

Yes no source pure speculation I agree.

However you asked if I could think of a possible reason based on my experience and personal knowledge, which I did.

The world is full of generous suggestions but there are so few data on wich to write a real history about Jack the Ripper. Therefore, we have books written on suggestions.

Yes I agree but in the situation where we have no sources, we are left with little but speculation.

Simon's was not unreasonable, but cannot be proved.
Some research could be conducted on Phillips and his home to see if there is any data readily available.

And I of course expect much more from you, Steve, than referring to suggestions without any data at all.

Well, I cannot conjure data out of thin air.

I can see no sources other than what we have already seen, which can be reliably linked.

All I have at present are unsupported ideas.

Hence my initial reluctance to give any suggestions at all.

Indeed. We do not know the provenience of the statement. But it sounds as an official statement made by someone who wanted to give the answer that the pail contained portions of the body of the woman. Is that Kelly?

I have reread the source, and I am not convinced by your reading of it as an official statement.

I am sure you can.

I am not sure,

Ideas without supporting data certainly:

1. He was carring out a pre-autopsy examination of some of the organs, maybe on his own or maybe with other medics.
We know the mortuary was small and cramped and maybe there was more space and light in his home to carry out the examination

No source to support such an idea, but it is not unreasonable as speculation.


2. The body was removed first, it is possible that the pall was initially left by mistake and the mortuary had been locked so it was decided to send the remains to Dr Phillips who lived nearby.

Again we have no source to support the idea, but i suggest it is not entirely unreasonable.



3. Simon's suggestion: we would need research to attempt to see if there is any record of Dr Phillips having those facilities at his house.



4. He wanted to carry out some "private" examination away from others. Reason unknown, this would require the assistance/cooperation of the police/authorities obviously,

And again we have no source to support such an idea.



I do not really like this kind of pure speculation.




Steve