The pail

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  • Pierre
    replied
    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
    Robert,

    I would not be surprised in the slightest if that is what it is about.

    Steve
    Steve, how many items could such a pail have contained do you think?

    Regards, Pierre

    Leave a comment:


  • Pierre
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post
    Hi spyglass.

    It,s a Pierre thread, so P. is testing ,the hypothesis, against the best suggestions that ripperologists can ,summon up,. If you,re following along, the accomplice(?) might tie in with the rearranged furniture ties in with ,mocking, Lord Mayor,s Dinner ties in with the secret door all tied in with a comment the outgoing Lord Mayor made about the Whitechapel killer in early October. Right now GUTs suggestion of Blotchy,s beer is the best bc it,s an object and not an organ.

    My thought on the matter is Pierre,s suspect may have attended or was attending the Lord Mayor Dinner because this person knew the table layout as P. claims.
    Hi Robert,

    No, I do not think along your lines there.

    Regards, Pierre

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert St Devil
    replied
    Hi spyglass.

    It,s a Pierre thread, so P. is testing ,the hypothesis, against the best suggestions that ripperologists can ,summon up,. If you,re following along, the accomplice(?) might tie in with the rearranged furniture ties in with ,mocking, Lord Mayor,s Dinner ties in with the secret door all tied in with a comment the outgoing Lord Mayor made about the Whitechapel killer in early October. Right now GUTs suggestion of Blotchy,s beer is the best bc it,s an object and not an organ.

    My thought on the matter is Pierre,s suspect may have attended or was attending the Lord Mayor Dinner because this person knew the table layout as P. claims.

    Leave a comment:


  • Elamarna
    replied
    Robert,

    I would not be surprised in the slightest if that is what it is about.


    Steve

    Leave a comment:


  • spyglass
    replied
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty certain that I have read somewhere that the Police took away a tied up sheet or blanket obtaining objects other than the body and this was assumed to be the other body parts.

    Regards

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Wonder if that's where the absent heart went.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert St Devil
    replied
    Hi Pierre.

    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
    Hi Robert,

    Is there any evidence for that idea?

    Regards, Pierre
    Um, there's this from earlier today...

    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
    Maybe the transport of the pail to the home of Phillips was connected to Dr Phillips visiting the House of Commons after the murder and Matthews stating that there was an accomplice. {my own emphasis}


    Regards, Pierre
    Last edited by Robert St Devil; 11-09-2016, 03:38 PM.

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  • spyglass
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post
    The purpose of this thread relates to an accomplice. Even though I would imagine that something like that would have been brought out at the inquest... it's ultimately about an accomplice. That data being in the sources or "the archive". Not post mortem examination or organ removal. An accomplice.

    I believe the question here should have been:

    what did Dr Phillips have in the pail that suggested or proved an accomplice?
    Well I might be inclined to think that Dr Bond was an accomplice of sorts......although not in the murder of MJK.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pierre
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post
    The purpose of this thread relates to an accomplice. Even though I would imagine that something like that would have been brought out at the inquest... it's ultimately about an accomplice. That data being in the sources or "the archive". Not post mortem examination or organ removal. An accomplice.

    I believe the question here should have been:

    what did Dr Phillips have in the pail that suggested or proved an accomplice?
    Hi Robert,

    Is there any evidence for that idea?

    Regards, Pierre

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert St Devil
    replied
    The purpose of this thread relates to an accomplice. Even though I would imagine that something like that would have been brought out at the inquest... it's ultimately about an accomplice. That data being in the sources or "the archive". Not post mortem examination or organ removal. An accomplice.

    I believe the question here should have been:

    what did Dr Phillips have in the pail that suggested or proved an accomplice?

    Leave a comment:


  • paul g
    replied
    Where did the pail come from?
    It is possible that the pail contained the remains of the fire which was a mixture of burnt ashes and body parts allegedly .

    Leave a comment:


  • spyglass
    replied
    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
    After the murder of Mary Jane Kelly a pail was carried away from the murder site in Millerīs Court.

    It was covered with a newspaper but it was not taken to the mortuary. Instead, it was taken to the house of Dr Phillips.

    What was in the pail?

    Why was it taken to the house of Phillips?



    Regards, Pierre
    Hi Pierre,
    He could of course just been taking an empty pail back home, therefore maybe the question should be " what was carried in the pail to the murder scene?

    Regards

    Leave a comment:


  • DJA
    replied
    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
    Mmm. And the house of Phillips was about a ten minutes walk from the mortuary I think. Why not take the pail to the mortuary then, instead of taking it to the house of Phillips?
    Mmm indeed.



    Google Earth shows the mortuary behind the church.
    Numerous photos on the internet.

    Phillip's residence was a relatively short walk from London Hospital,Shoreditch Church Mortuary and Sutton's residence at Finsbury Square.

    Incidentally, sailorman Hutchinson had a child living with him at one time.
    Child's parents resided in Primrose Street.
    Phillip's seemed to be involved in gaining a pardon for one of Jack's accomplices.

    Mmm......fun with maps

    Last edited by DJA; 11-09-2016, 02:25 PM. Reason: Link to lost spitalfields

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  • Pierre
    replied
    [QUOTE=Elamarna;399604]
    1. He was carring out a pre-autopsy examination of some of the organs, maybe on his own or maybe with other medics.
    We know the mortuary was small and cramped and maybe there was more space and light in his home to carry out the examination
    Consequence: A lot of post mortems would have to be performed in the homes of doctorīs since the mortuary was so small.

    Not a valid hypothesis. The mortuary and the private home were different places.

    2. The body was removed first, it is possible that the pall was initially left by mistake and the mortuary had been locked so it was decided to send the remains to Dr Phillips who lived nearby.
    Consequence: Need for an explanation about sloppy work in Millerīs Court at a very important murder site.

    Not a valid hypothesis.

    3. Simon's suggestion: we would need research to attempt to see if there is any record of Dr Phillips having those facilities at his house.
    Consequence: A constant problem for many post mortems. It demanded that doctorīs had refrigerators at home and went back and forth from their homes to the mortuary with pails filled with portions from dead bodies. Why not have the refrigerator at the mortuary instead. (Because it was so small...and we have that non valid hypothesis again).

    Not a valid hypothesis.
    4. He wanted to carry out some "private" examination away from others. Reason unknown, this would require the assistance/cooperation of the police/authorities obviously,
    Why?

    Regards, Pierre

    Leave a comment:


  • Elamarna
    replied
    Originally posted by Pierre View Post


    But why then take them to Dr. Phillip's private house instead of taking them to the mortuary and put them back into the body where they belonged, if that was what they wanted to do but could not no in Millerīs Court?

    Or maybe they did not belong to the body, since they were separated from it?
    we appear to have nothing in the sources to answer this, and I fear we are left with little but speculation.



    Originally posted by Pierre View Post

    Yes, very problematic and there is no source for it.
    Yes no source pure speculation I agree.

    However you asked if I could think of a possible reason based on my experience and personal knowledge, which I did.


    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
    The world is full of generous suggestions but there are so few data on wich to write a real history about Jack the Ripper. Therefore, we have books written on suggestions.

    Yes I agree but in the situation where we have no sources, we are left with little but speculation.

    Simon's was not unreasonable, but cannot be proved.
    Some research could be conducted on Phillips and his home to see if there is any data readily available.


    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
    And I of course expect much more from you, Steve, than referring to suggestions without any data at all.

    Well, I cannot conjure data out of thin air.

    I can see no sources other than what we have already seen, which can be reliably linked.

    All I have at present are unsupported ideas.

    Hence my initial reluctance to give any suggestions at all.



    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
    Indeed. We do not know the provenience of the statement. But it sounds as an official statement made by someone who wanted to give the answer that the pail contained portions of the body of the woman. Is that Kelly?
    I have reread the source, and I am not convinced by your reading of it as an official statement.



    Originally posted by Pierre View Post
    I am sure you can.


    I am not sure,

    Ideas without supporting data certainly:

    1. He was carring out a pre-autopsy examination of some of the organs, maybe on his own or maybe with other medics.
    We know the mortuary was small and cramped and maybe there was more space and light in his home to carry out the examination

    No source to support such an idea, but it is not unreasonable as speculation.


    2. The body was removed first, it is possible that the pall was initially left by mistake and the mortuary had been locked so it was decided to send the remains to Dr Phillips who lived nearby.

    Again we have no source to support the idea, but i suggest it is not entirely unreasonable.



    3. Simon's suggestion: we would need research to attempt to see if there is any record of Dr Phillips having those facilities at his house.



    4. He wanted to carry out some "private" examination away from others. Reason unknown, this would require the assistance/cooperation of the police/authorities obviously,

    And again we have no source to support such an idea.



    I do not really like this kind of pure speculation.




    Steve

    Leave a comment:

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