The pail

[Simon Wood]

Hi Pierre,

Nobody is suggesting that the transportation of the pail [and its contents] to the private house of Dr. Phillips is not an established historical fact.

What's your point?

Regards,

Simon

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,

I wasn't suggesting that Dr. Phillips having a refrigerator/ice box at 2 Spital Square was a historical fact.

I was merely offering it as a suggestion as to why he might have taken/sent a pail of human offal to his home.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Of course you didnīt. And I merely wanted to point out that the contents of the pail being separated from everyone in the mortuary through its transportation to the private house of Phillips is an established historical fact.

And in this case, one must be ever so thankful for any established historical fact, since there are so many suggestions that are not established historical facts.

Regards, Pierre

[Simon Wood]

Hi Pierre,

I wasn't suggesting that Dr. Phillips having a refrigerator/ice box at 2 Spital Square was a historical fact.

I was merely offering it as a suggestion as to why he might have taken/sent a pail of human offal to his home.

Regards,

Simon

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Elamarna;399589

No definitive answer, however the intestines are large in size so it may not have been possible to put them back in the body and leave space for anything else, working in the confines of millers court.

But why then take them to Dr. Phillip's private house instead of taking them to the mortuary and put them back into the body where they belonged, if that was what they wanted to do but could not no in Millerīs Court?

Or maybe they did not belong to the body, since they were separated from it?

The same would apply to putting these organs into a pall, more likely two or three.

One would have to further cut the up, which could have lead to possible problems with what was cut where and by whom.

Yes, very problematic and there is no source for it.

As for a reason to split, Simon's suggest seems as good as any?

The world is full of generous suggestions but there are so few data on wich to write a real history about Jack the Ripper. Therefore, we have books written on suggestions.

And I of course expect much more from you, Steve, than referring to suggestions without any data at all.

It seems we do not know if this information was volunteered or gained by asking someone at the scene.

Indeed. We do not know the provenience of the statement. But it sounds as an official statement made by someone who wanted to give the answer that the pail contained portions of the body of the woman. Is that Kelly?

sorry I can offer no more insight.

I am sure you can.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,

I would suggest that Dr. Phillips' intentions were no more mysterious than a desire to keep whatever was in the pail chilled overnight in a refrigerator/ice box, in readiness for the next day's post mortem.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

But we do not know that Dr. Phillips had a refrigerator or ice box in his house.

So it not an established historical fact, Simon.

We do know, though, that by taking the contents in the pail to Dr. Phillip's house, these contents were indeed separated from everyone in the mortuary and placed in a private house.

That is actually an established historical fact.

So the first suggestion has no value and the second has.

Now, how can we interpret the second historical fact?

Regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

Why would someone, from your medical perspective, have needed to select specific organs, put them in a pail and send them to another place than the mortuary?

No definitive answer, however the intestines are large in size so it may not have been possible to put them back in the body and leave space for anything else, working in the confines of millers court.

The same would apply to putting these organs into a pall, more likely two or three.
One would have to further cut the up, which could have lead to possible problems with what was cut where and by whom.

As for a reason to split, Simon's suggest seems as good as any?

And why would they tell the journalists the contents belonged to the body of the woman?

It seems we do not know if this information was volunteered or gained by asking someone at the scene.


sorry I can offer no more insight.


Steve

[Simon Wood]

Hi Pierre,

I would suggest that Dr. Phillips' intentions were no more mysterious than a desire to keep whatever was in the pail chilled overnight in a refrigerator/ice box, in readiness for the next day's post mortem.

Regards,

Simon

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Elamarna;399586

Pierre

Assuming a normal not extra large pall you would be correct.,

Yes.

Perhaps the larger organs like intestines may have been replace in the body cavity Fr course an the smaller organs and tissue, may have gone into the pall.

Why would someone, from your medical perspective, have needed to select specific organs, put them in a pail and send them to another place than the mortuary?

And why would they tell the journalists the contents belonged to the body of the woman?

Regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Pierre;399584]

But everything that was removed from the body could not have fitted into one pail.

Pierre

Assuming a normal not extra large pall you would be correct.,

Perhaps the larger organs like intestines may have been replace in the body cavity Fr course an the smaller organs and tissue, may have gone into the pall.



steve

[Pierre]

Hi All,

Perhaps Dr. Phillips had a refrigerator/ice box at 2 Spital Square.

The mortuary certainly didn't.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

By taking the pail to Phillips house the contents were separated from everyone at the mortuary.

Was that an action without an intention to separate the contents from everyone else or was it an action based on the intention to do so?

If the latter, what could the motive(s) have been?

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Yabs;399580]

Hi Pierre.
It may be something as simple as Phillips being on the scene for 5 hours or more, so he wanted or needed to go back home and thought he should take the remains for examination.

he possibly had a room dedicated to his practice at home.
he wasn't doing the autopsy until the next day

so maybe he wanted to be clear on what was removed from the body before he did the examination to see if any body parts were missing.

But everything that was removed from the body could not have fitted into one pail.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Perhaps Dr. Phillips had a refrigerator/ice box at 2 Spital Square.

The mortuary certainly didn't.

Regards,

Simon

[Yabs]

Yes, and therefore, in order to be able to reconstruct the body of Kelly, the whole body would have been needed at the mortuary. But the pail, if it contained parts of her body, would not make that reconstruction possible. So what did it contain?

Hi Pierre.
It may be something as simple as Phillips being on the scene for 5 hours or more, so he wanted or needed to go back home and thought he should take the remains for examination.
he possibly had a room dedicated to his practice at home.
he wasn't doing the autopsy until the next day so maybe he wanted to be clear on what was removed from the body before he did the examination to see if any body parts were missing.

[Pierre]

The mortuary was a small solid brick building behind St Leonard's Church.
Two experts were on that Vestry Board and Phillips knew that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas..._(toxicologist)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Gawen_Sutton

This is really interesting.

Mmm. And the house of Phillips was about a ten minutes walk from the mortuary I think. Why not take the pail to the mortuary then, instead of taking it to the house of Phillips?

[Pierre]

Yes, and therefore, in order to be able to reconstruct the body of Kelly, the whole body would have been needed at the mortuary. But the pail, if it contained parts of her body, would not make that reconstruction possible. So what did it contain?

I am merely a simple historian asking questions.