Possible Mary Kelly Birth

[Pierre]

If Kelly was truly a local girl, why do we have such an incredibly small number of people coming forward - whether to the police or the press - to identify her? Of those who did, there almost complete unanimity in saying that she arrived in the East End from outside.

Bearing in mind that she only claimed to have been in London for a handful of years, at a time when people were less inclined to jettison the accents with which they grew up, she'd almost certainly have spoken like an outsider. If she sounded like a dyed-in-the-wool Cockney, then surely people would have noticed and smelled a rat. Perhaps they did but, if so, there's nothing on record to suggest as much.

An Irish victim killed by an Irish killer.

People with social problems ended up in areas with social problems.

The terrible burden of the social world.

Cheers, Pierre

[Wickerman]

All good points Gareth.

[Sam Flynn]

If Kelly was truly a local girl, why do we have such an incredibly small number of people coming forward - whether to the police or the press - to identify her? Of those who did, there almost complete unanimity in saying that she arrived in the East End from outside.

Bearing in mind that she only claimed to have been in London for a handful of years, at a time when people were less inclined to jettison the accents with which they grew up, she'd almost certainly have spoken like an outsider. If she sounded like a dyed-in-the-wool Cockney, then surely people would have noticed and smelled a rat. Perhaps they did but, if so, there's nothing on record to suggest as much.

[DJA]

Hi Dave,

Is this the Mary Kelly who was born in Shoreditch on 27 April 1859?

Yes,along with the rest of the family.

[PaulWilliams]

Hi Dave,

Is this the Mary Kelly who was born in Shoreditch on 27 April 1859?

[DJA]

Until the Catholic baptisms went online recently, it was impossible to know how many women named Mary Kelly whose father was named John were born in Limerick (County or City), people were reliant on just statutory registration records and the Catholic church tended to keep a hold of their records at the church they related to and statutory registration didn't start until 1864 in Ireland. If MJK had been born a Catholic and before 1864 she obviously wouldn't show in the SB records but with the new chusrch records databses we can see that there were 16 possibles among just those Catholic records that have been put online.
Yours definitely fits in the list of possibles.
The difficulty still is matching up MJK to any of these births because there isn't an Irish census that still exists before 1891 to tace anyone on.

Perhaps we are looking for the wrong faith in the wrong country.

My Mary Kelly was a local girl.
Church of England.

Mother Emma,father John.
Oldest brother John,hence Jno.
James.
Edward.
Henry.
Emma.
Mary Ann,hence fair Emma.

Pear Tree Court,Clerkenwell.

[Debra A]

Understood, didn't mean to cause controversy. There was only one other that I found on their site with a father named John. He was a soldier stationed at the Cape of Good Hope, so ruled that one out. Just thought it might be interesting to share, never believed it would be definitive. Take the point that Mary and Kelly are common Irish names and will not be resolved in that case, especially if it wasn't her real name. But hopefully people won't give up trying.

I wasn't knocking you for it by any means. Just trying to explain the background to the previous birth searches only turning up one ot two possibles when the release of Catholic records show there were a few more.
There may be a few to look at but I agree that one of that list certainly could have been MJK, if she told Barnett the truth, including the one you found.
If these records were English we could document the lives of these girls with their families on census records but not so for Ireland so actually ruling out any of these births is difficult unless they died in infancy.
The number isn't necessarily the problem, it's the follow up research that is, was all I was trying to convey to others posting here.

[cesjak]

Until the Catholic baptisms went online recently, it was impossible to know how many women named Mary Kelly whose father was named John were born in Limerick (County or City), people were reliant on just statutory registration records and the Catholic church tended to keep a hold of their records at the church they related to and statutory registration didn't start until 1864 in Ireland. If MJK had been born a Catholic and before 1864 she obviously wouldn't show in the SB records but with the new chusrch records databses we can see that there were 16 possibles among just those Catholic records that have been put online.
Yours definitely fits in the list of possibles.
The difficulty still is matching up MJK to any of these births because there isn't an Irish census that still exists before 1891 to tace anyone on.

Understood, didn't mean to cause controversy. There was only one other that I found on their site with a father named John. He was a soldier stationed at the Cape of Good Hope, so ruled that one out. Just thought it might be interesting to share, never believed it would be definitive. Take the point that Mary and Kelly are common Irish names and will not be resolved in that case, especially if it wasn't her real name. But hopefully people won't give up trying.

[Debra A]

Thanks for the replies. I thought I would just put this out there as I found it odd that I had read sources that stated there was no birth record in Limerick that would match. I knew it was a long shot as there was no guarantee she was using a real name or the possibility that she was actually welsh! Its one of the bigger mysteries within the whole conundrum. Finding the correct identity may lead to other breakthroughs. Still living in hope that more will be discovered.

Until the Catholic baptisms went online recently, it was impossible to know how many women named Mary Kelly whose father was named John were born in Limerick (County or City), people were reliant on just statutory registration records and the Catholic church tended to keep a hold of their records at the church they related to and statutory registration didn't start until 1864 in Ireland. If MJK had been born a Catholic and before 1864 she obviously wouldn't show in the SB records but with the new chusrch records databses we can see that there were 16 possibles among just those Catholic records that have been put online.
Yours definitely fits in the list of possibles.
The difficulty still is matching up MJK to any of these births because there isn't an Irish census that still exists before 1891 to tace anyone on.

[cesjak]

Thanks for the replies. I thought I would just put this out there as I found it odd that I had read sources that stated there was no birth record in Limerick that would match. I knew it was a long shot as there was no guarantee she was using a real name or the possibility that she was actually welsh! Its one of the bigger mysteries within the whole conundrum. Finding the correct identity may lead to other breakthroughs. Still living in hope that more will be discovered.

[DirectorDave]

I'm not quite sure of why Kelly being a popular name detracts from "hiding in plain sight"...if you are saying there are many Kellys and this can be one of many then we already knew that before anyone started looking.

There is an analogy with how Ford Prefect chose his name here...but I cant quite string it together.

[GUT]

And Mary must be the most popular first name, if not darn close to it.

[Trevor Marriott]

Right time, right place, right names.

Has Mary been hiding in plain sight all along?

The surname Kelly is the second most popular name in Ireland.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DirectorDave]

Right time, right place, right names.

Has Mary been hiding in plain sight all along?

[Debra A]

That certainly looks a possible, cesjak.

Statutory registration of births began in Ireland in 1864 so I compiled a list of girls named Mary/Maria etc. born and baptised as Catholics in Limerick County between 1855 and 1865 (before statutory registration in 1864) whose father was named John a while back. I'll reprost it here for interest:


Maria Kelly 1857 Kilfinane Limerick Joannis Brigida
Maria Kelly 1858 Mungret Limerick Joanne Maria
Mariam Kelly 1853 Mahoonagh Limerick Joanne Maria
Mariam Kelly 1855 Glin Limerick Joanne Ellena
Mariam Kelly 1859 Croagh Limerick Joannis Honora
Mary Kelly 1853 St. Mary's, Limerick city Limerick John Johanna
Mary Kelly 1854 St. John's, Limerick city Limerick John Eliza
Mary Kelly 1855 Knockany and Patrickswell Limerick John Margt
Mary Jane Kellaher 1865 St. Michael's, Limerick city Limerick John Bridget
Mary Kelly 1862 Kilbehenny Limerick John Mary
Mary Kelly 1865 Ballylanders Limerick John Mary
Mariam Kelley 1861 Cahirnorry Limerick Joannes Honora
Maria Kelly 1857 Kilfinane Limerick Joannis Brigida
Maria Kelly 1862 Bruree Limerick Joaquin Maria
Maria Kelly 1863 Killeedy Limerick Joannis Maria
Maria Kelly 1864 Ballyagran Limerick, Cork Joannis Annaearlier this year