How long after the carmen left Nichols could Neil have arrived?

[Elamarna]

Sorry Frank, I skimmed over this part. But my point, as you imply in this instance, is that there may have been other delays and "knocking up" stops that could throw off the timings along beats.

Totally agree Scott, the best we can do is provide a possible fastest time, it might be longer.

Steve

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Hi Al,

It's not clear if you think I'm one of those who think PC'S were automatons sticking rigidly to beat times, but if you do, then I'd have to correct you. With all of the above, I've been sticking quite rigidly to the evidence we're left with and to see where that would lead me in the sense of 'where could/would Neil have been when the carmen passed on Buck's Row' and how much time could Neil have arrived at the crime spot after the carmen left'. Having said that, I must say that, in the general sense, I agree with your point.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I meant in general, not specifically regarding your calculations. Naturally, when yourself, Jeff and Steve are working out likely routes and beats you'll need something to work from.

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

I meant in general, not specifically regarding your calculations. Naturally, when yourself, Jeff and Steve are working out likely routes and beats you'll need something to work from.

Thanks for clearing that up, Al.

[FrankO]

Frank, not bad at all, I broadly agree with most of it. I don't believe you have my book, but I could be wrong.
Much of your work mirrors what I suggest, as with Jeff, it seems a few of us independently of each other are reaching the same broad conclusions on issues surrounding Bucks Row.

While there are some minor differences in the timings we both suggest, these are explained by varing speeds used and by variation in the distances we each use.( i have rarely got the measuring tool on the NLS site to give exactly the same figures on measurements, i normally do 3 and then average .).

They are however, minor . We are in the same ball park.

I devote 2 chapters to this question in the Book "Inside Bucks Row"

Looking at the various possibilities for Neil's beat and there are a few, as you touch on yourself. I also look at how fast after the carmen leave could he have arrived.
Note that's not when, but the fastest possible time, he may have arrived later.
I also use a range of possible walking speeds for both the carmen and Neil.

New work posted a few days ago by Jeff, on likely blood volume are being incorporated into the next update of said book.
Such are I believe possibly very significant

Steve

Thanks for your response, Steve. It's indeed good to know that we've reached very similar conclusions independently of one another. I in fact haven't got your book (yet), but wasn't aware that either you or Jeff had already done the same sort of exercise to get some better idea of how Neil could have missed the carmen & vice versa and how much time passed since they'd left Nichols. Although I could have expected you both to have done such a thing. Good that you're updating your book every now & then!

Cheers,
Frank

[Elamarna]

Thanks for your response, Steve. It's indeed good to know that we've reached very similar conclusions independently of one another. I in fact haven't got your book (yet), but wasn't aware that either you or Jeff had already done the same sort of exercise to get some better idea of how Neil could have missed the carmen & vice versa and how much time passed since they'd left Nichols. Although I could have expected you both to have done such a thing. Good that you're updating your book every now & then!

Cheers,
Frank

It's updated at least twice a year, but I am trying to reduce that.

Steve

[JeffHamm]

Thanks for your response, Steve. It's indeed good to know that we've reached very similar conclusions independently of one another. I in fact haven't got your book (yet), but wasn't aware that either you or Jeff had already done the same sort of exercise to get some better idea of how Neil could have missed the carmen & vice versa and how much time passed since they'd left Nichols. Although I could have expected you both to have done such a thing. Good that you're updating your book every now & then!

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

As Steve has said, you've come to very similar conclusions. There are a number of parameters one has to make calls on, such as the exact beat, the patrol speed, and so forth, so it is good to see that despite the fact we all have to make our own choices, the end results are all telling the same general story. That adds to the robustness of the finding, demonstrating that the outcome isn't a result of picking and choosing specific values just to make them work. In the end, this sort of analysis isn't about trying to get every detail of time and space exactly right, but rather, to get an idea of plausible ranges. Given our starting data has some holes in it, I'm actually impressed at just how similar the outcomes tend to be. Well done.

- Jeff

[FrankO]

In the end, this sort of analysis isn't about trying to get every detail of time and space exactly right, but rather, to get an idea of plausible ranges.

Hi Jeff,

Yah (I like that word, almost the same as our Dutch 'ja' for 'yes'), the above is really spot on, exactly what I had wanted to write. Thanks for your comment and compliment.

Cheers,
Frank

[Mark J D]

I am always working from the idea that Neil entered Bucks Row from Thomas Street and walked towards Brady Street, the way it is laid down in for example the Daily News and the East London Observer, if I remember correctly.
This is all laid out in detail in Cutting Point.

Hi Christer,

Does the above mean we have conflicting sources about the precise route PC Niel took into Buck's Row?

Sorry if this is in your book; I keep lending my copy to people who then lend it to other people, so I don't even know who has it at the moment. (Lechmere really catches on...)

M.

[Elamarna]

Hi Christer,

Does the above mean we have conflicting sources about the precise route PC Niel took into Buck's Row?

Sorry if this is in your book; I keep lending my copy to people who then lend it to other people, so I don't even know who has it at the moment. (Lechmere really catches on...)

M.

We do indeed Mark,
Christer prefers one route entering Bucks Row via Thomas Street from the south. There are however other routes for his beat, which may involve him entering from the North, possibly still via Thomas St.

Neil himself does not tell us his exact beat, or if he entered from the North or the South.

Steve

[Mark J D]

We do indeed Mark,
Christer prefers one route entering Bucks Row via Thomas Street from the south. There are however other routes for his beat, which may involve him entering from the North, possibly still via Thomas St.

Neil himself does not tell us his exact beat, or if he entered from the North or the South.

Thanks for this.

Can anyone steer me to sources for any of these 'other routes'? I assume they'll be on the site somewhere...

M.

[Elamarna]

Thanks for this.

Can anyone steer me to sources for any of these 'other routes'? I assume they'll be on the site somewhere...

M.

I think Jeff may have listed some, I have them all in my book of course.

The routes are based on an article in the Echo on 21st September

"“the third constable would commence at Brady Street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker’s row, Thomas Street, Queen Anne Street, and Buck’s row, to Brady Street, and all the interior, thisconsisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c.”

Neil himself said he went as far as Bakers Row and that he was also in Winthrop at around 3.20 when he saw the slaughtermen.

Steve

[FrankO]

Can anyone steer me to sources for any of these 'other routes'? I assume they'll be on the site somewhere...

The OP would be a good place to start looking. Here's a good map and the rest is something you'll have to figure out for yourself, route-wise.

[JeffHamm]

Thanks for this.

Can anyone steer me to sources for any of these 'other routes'? I assume they'll be on the site somewhere...

M.

A couple of years ago now I think there was a fair bit of discussion around PC Neil's route. Obviously, as with everything, there are ambiguities and no final route should be viewed as definitive. The attempt was to combine as much information as was available to try and constrain things to routes that met certain requirements (it's been awhile, so I won't risk relying on memory to try and recreate the discussion). Anyway, Steve had done a lot of the work, and his book contains a number of variations. When I was playing around with the simulations, I tried various routes, and in the end, the same pattern would emerge regardless with only irrelevant variations in exact details (where exactly it places PC Neil is not so important if in all cases he ends up out of view of Cross/Lechmere and Paul as they leave the area). My recollection is that most of the ambiguity had to do with the north-west corner of the route, near the end of the patrol before he finds Nichols, and how he covered that section.

I don't, however, recall a route that had him coming up from the south before turning in and finding the body though? That would be an interesting one to play with. That doesn't mean it wasn't discussed, of course, as I sometimes don't recall breakfast! It is possible that such a route didn't fit some of the other constraints being applied, or the memory of has become lost in the discussion of the multiple routes that have him coming from the north and so I just don't recall it now. Anyway, there was a fair bit of discussion at the time, and I think it was around the time when Steve's book was first being published (maybe just before it came out?), which might help. I think it is in one of the Cross/Lechmere threads, and was one of those topics that came up rather than being the point of the original post per se. And, in all likelihood, is buried deep in it. Sorry I can't be of more help in pointing you to the discussion's location than that, but as I say, it was awhile ago.

- Jeff

[Mark J D]

Thanks for the helpful replies, folks. It's a shame this site isn't more easily searchable, given the amount of detailed work that has been done on so many topics.

M.

[rjpalmer]

A couple of years ago now I think there was a fair bit of discussion around PC Neil's route.

Is this what you are remembering?

PC Neil's Route - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums