Disregarded evidence

[DVV]

DVV
If you don't mind me saying you are starting to suffer from adversarial contradiction syndrome - where you are compelled to tie yourself in knots opposing everything said by those you are against.

Well, I do not mind.
Especially when I'm saying nothing more than : Mrs Green, having confessed that she had slept all through, is hardly an evidence that Mrs Lilley had fabricated her story.
Not to say, of course, that Mrs Lilley's statement (to a journalist) had not been "disregarded" by the police with good reason. That's something else.

Seems that it is good common sense I'm suffering from.

[DVV]

Do you think the police would have been better served by her withholding that they were probably looking for a dark man in his forties or so, with a probable foreign descent?
Fisherman

Yes, Fish. Because Mrs Long, once she heard of the murder, thought she had seen Leather Apron. And got a long retrospective shudder.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lechmere,

DVV poses a good question.

Charlotte Colville heard a scuffling and bumping against her shutters and cries of Police! Murder!

Harriet Lilley heard a moan, two or three faint gasps, and whispers beneath her window.

Neither attended the Nichols inquest.

Mrs Green [adjacent] and Mr Purkess [opposite] heard absolutely nothing.

Both attended the Nichols inquest.

For all they contributed, they might just as well have been in Lyme Regis at the time of the murder.

But they weren't subpoenaed for nothing.

Their testimony helped reinforce the concept of a swift, silent killer, plus the idea that Polly Nichols had been attacked and murdered where she was found, something which Dr. Llewellyn did not believe until someone read him his fortune, deciding him to discard his contrary opinion at the inquest.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

David:

"Mrs Long, once she heard of the murder, thought she had seen Leather Apron. And got a long retrospective shudder."

Hold it, David! Are you saying that Long fabricated her story? Or are you saying that it would have been better for the Jews if she did not state what she believed she had seen?

Or are you saying something else altogether? Listening to you somewtimes resembles sticking your head down a barrel full of eels. What makes me uneasy about that is that you seem to voluntarily choose that methodology.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Dvv was persisting in claiming that Emma green hadn't claimed to be a light sleeper.
Green and purkess lived closest to the murder scene. Neither claimed to be fast asleep all night and so had something to say about the noise levels in bucks row. Both gave evidence about what was going on in the crime scene very soon after Neil 'discovered' polly. Green gave evidence about what sort of street bucks row was.
Their inclusion was entirely logical. That they didn't give evidence to the effect that they heard a loud commotion may disappoint some people, but there you go.

Why werent Lilley or colville called? I presume they were not believed or were believed to be mistaken or their accounts related to something else. I haven't had time to spell out my detailed and separate views on their accounts as I've been too busy this week!

[DVV]

Dvv was persisting in claiming that Emma green hadn't claimed to be a light sleeper.

Hilarious, Lechmere, although a bit difficult to quote.

But more hilarious is the "self-styled-light-sleepers-do-not-sleep-when-they-say-they-sleep"-theory.

[DVV]

David:
"Mrs Long, once she heard of the murder, thought she had seen Leather Apron. And got a long retrospective shudder."

Hold it, David! Are you saying that Long fabricated her story?
Fisherman

Hi Fish
I'm not saying she fabricated her story. She saw Chapman and her murderer, in all likehood.
But as she only had a glimpse of the man from behind, what she said on the subject (age, foreigner) is more a guess than a genuine description. This guess strangely tallying Leather Apron.
Too bad she added "foreigner", I know.

[Fisherman]

David:

"what she said on the subject (age, foreigner) is more a guess than a genuine description."

It is a guess to a larger or lesser degree, yes, but not only a guess. She noticed the dark skin, opening for her foreigner suggestion, and she would have noticed something that made her think that the man was above forty, skin texture, posture ... you name it.
Could have been right, could have been wrong, but that´s how she read the man, and she would have had some sort of substantiation behind it.

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Ok Fish, but why do you categorically discard/ignore the possible influence of the papers ?

[Fisherman]

In what manner, David? I´m a newspaper man myself, and to think that it has all been in vain visavi myself sounds depressing...

But I take it you are being a bit too clever again, perhaps? Let me know, and I will give my view - but not until tomorrow. Bonne nuit!

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Merci Fish ! (Twas about Leather Apron)

[DVV]

Charlotte Colville heard a scuffling and bumping against her shutters and cries of Police! Murder!
Harriet Lilley heard a moan, two or three faint gasps, and whispers beneath her window.

Neither attended the Nichols inquest.

Mrs Green [adjacent] and Mr Purkess [opposite] heard absolutely nothing.
Both attended the Nichols inquest.

Simon

Hi Simon

According to Spratling, the only neighbours worth questioning were Purkiss and Green.
He refers to them (only them) in first report (31 Aug), and again to them (only them) at the inquest (3 Sept).
Unfortunately, he probably misunderstood Mrs Green, saying that she was "up until 4.30".

[curious]

I, too, have attempted to research this, but the amount of time I found was anywhere from 2 to 4 minutes for the heart to stop beating, then 3 to 15 minutes for the blood to clot.

doing the math, at the short end, you would have 5 minutes and at the long end you would have 19 minutes for death to occur and for the oozing to stop.

curious

I'm not sure it's smart resurrecting this, but I ran across something interesting in information here on Casebook about Alice McKenzie that applies directly to this.

Quoting from the victim section:
The pavement beneath the body of Alice McKenzie was still dry, placing her death sometime after 12:25 A.M. and before 12:45 A.M., when it began to rain.

P.C. Andrews heard someone approaching the alley soon after, and ordered the man (Lewis Jacobs) to stay with the body while he went to fetch help.

1:10 A.M.: Inspector Edmund Reid arrives only moments before Dr. George Bagster Phillips. Reid notices that blood continues to flow from the throat into the gutter (about 1:09 A.M.) but it begins to clot upon the arrival of Phillips (about 1:12 A.M.)

Here we have an example of blood not clotting for quite some time.

If Alice were killed at 12:45 the latest moment possible because of the rain and Phillips arrived at 1:12 a.m that is 27 minutes. And that is the shortest amount of time possible. The longest from 12:25 to 1:12 is 42 minutes.

or you can remove 3 minutes from each -- back to Reid's reporting that the blood was flowing from the throat into the gutter about 1:09, for a flowing tie from 24 to 39 minutes.

It's probably important to note that the times were given as "about" but still a considerable time that the blood was flowing.

Plenty of time for Polly to have been killed with the passing of the train.

Just interesting to me. Hope it might be for others.

curious

[Cogidubnus]

An excellent point well made Velma...obviously blood clotting times may differ from person to person, and maybe with differing conditions, but it appears, as you suggest, that a time of death closer to 3.30, as per Harriet Lilley, is by no means ruled out.

All the best

Dave

[curious]

An excellent point well made Velma...obviously blood clotting times may differ from person to person, and maybe with differing conditions, but it appears, as you suggest, that a time of death closer to 3.30, as per Harriet Lilley, is by no means ruled out.

All the best

Dave

Exactly, Dave. I had found just one reference that gave times I quoted earlier, but I was especially glad to find an example that actually demonstrated that.