Disregarded evidence

[Sally]

Ah. Well, I just noticed that you stated that you could not see why it could not be like Phil said, as if somebody had seriously challenged it. Which nobody had.

I found your reasoning slightly redundant, therefore. But by all means, let´s just agree that Phil has a great point, and a useful explanation to the Lilley suggestion.

The best,
Fisherman

Whatever Fisherman. If you enjoy wasting board space with inane ramblings, that's your call, I guess.

[Fisherman]

Ditto.

Fisherman

[DVV]

I must be daft or something, because far from confirming that Cross killed or didn't kill Nichols, all Harriett Lilley seems to be confirming is that a woman was murdered under her window, and two people subsequently spoke together in a low voice in the same spot. This makes perfect sense as Nichols was murdered there, and moments later, Cross and Paul spoke to each other, presumably in whispers.
Tom Wescott

Agreed, Tom.

[Lechmere]

I don't think Harriet Lilley said she heard someone being killed specifically and Polly wasn't found dead under her window.

[Fisherman]

On Lilley, exactly where did she live? She is listed on 7 Buck´s Row, but the 1891 Goad has the dwellings listed in even numbers, 2,4,6...etc.

Was Lilley´s house the seventh or eight dwelling from the railway, counting from New Cottage? If so, why does she say that she heard voices from underneath her window? Her house would - if they were listed 1,2,3 etc. - have been some appreciable way away from the murder spot.

Who has this figured out?

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

I think Harriet Lilley lived next door to Emma Green and Emma Green lived next door to Brown's Stable Yard. Emma Green of course heard nothing.

[Fisherman]

Aha. Well, that puts Lilley reasonably close to the site - but it does not have the murder going down underneath her window. And Emma Green in New Cottage was reportedly a light sleeper. And Walter Purkiss´wife was still up and about in Essex wharf, right opposite the spot - and heard nothing at all.

Plus the train timing does STILL does not tally with the oozing blood at 3.45-3.50...

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

If Emma Green heard nothing, and Walter Purkiss also heard nothing, yet Harriet Lilley did, perhaps that tells us that something occured closer to Lilley`s window.

We only know for certain that Nichols throat was cut where she lay, but she could have been man-handled and enginered into that position a few yards away from that spot.

[Phil H]

Plus the train timing does STILL does not tally with the oozing blood at 3.45-3.50...

If Mrs Lilley dozed off after hearing the train, there is no reason why it should tally. See my earlier post.

So far as others were concerned, noises at night can attract our attention or not depending on where our thoughts are. waiting for someone to return home, someone might be conscious of every sound. Some inward turned in thought, brooding on something or preoccupied with the inability to go to sleep might hear nothing.

Also sounds can be deceptive. People at different distances from the noise may hear different things 9for accoustical reasons). Also we do not know how acute the hearing of these people was.

Phil H

[lynn cates]

straight

Hello Tom. Don't think you need any setting straight. This all fits together.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

I guess, Jon. But why would she stay silent as she left the space underneath Lilley´s window? And if she was subdued there, badly drunk, why would the killer bother to drag her to Brown´s? Why not cut away there and then? It makes little sense.
But of course it could have happened that way.

But that STILL has the train and the bloodflow out of sync.

Phil h:

"If Mrs Lilley dozed off after hearing the train, there is no reason why it should tally."

Could well be, Phil. But she IS adamant that the sounds and the train were heard simultaneously. Still, she could have been drowsy and gotten it wrong. In which case much could be muddled!

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

The number ran on one side.

Courtesy of Robert Clack.

Incidently, Cutbush lived at No7 prior to the Lilleys.

Monty

[Jon Guy]

Unfortunately, Christer, as you know, we do not know how the killer subdued his victim. He may have punched her in the stomach and face to stun her on her feet before pulling her a few yards to the gates and away from the house windows. He could have been walking with his arm around her neck (remember how Marshall`s man was walking with Stride and his arm around her neck) and on approaching the gates tightened his grip.

Regarding blood flow and train times, we do not know when her throat was cut. It could have been a few minutes after the train that Lilley heard had passed.

[Jon Guy]

Note to myself :-)

Actually, we do know when her throat was cut. It was within half an hour of Dr Llewellyn arriving and inspecting the body, 3.30am at the earliest.

[Lechmere]

Monty
That's interesting about cutbush - what is the source?