Disregarded evidence

[harry]

Apologies for the small print,and the clarity.From a colonial paper of that time.Interesting it says Mckenzie was sometimes known as Kelly.

[harry]

Another part of the report.

[Jon Guy]

Thanks Harry.

I like the little detail I`ve never seen before that Jacobs had been sent by his brother to fetch some cheese and pickle.

[Phil H]

So is the Christmas week 1887 murder an early report of "Fairy Fay" or a misreporting of Emma Smith (though the date is too early for her, surely)?

Phil H

[harry]

[ATTACH]14964[/ATTACH]

[harry]

overseas report

[ATTACH]14963[/ATTACH]

[curious]

Hi Curious.
Allowances must be made for the fact McKenzie's body was warm, when compared to the pavement. Her warm body and clothing would have helped dry the pavement underneath her torso, even though the ground may have been wet with rain for a couple of minutes.
Her body laid in-situ for at least 25-27 minutes drying the pavement before the doctor arrived giving the impression she was attacked before it started to rain.

Having a wife who is now on blood thinners due to a heart op. we have learned that she must avoid certain foods (and perhaps drink?) which thin your blood naturally and make it slower to clot/coagulate/congeal, etc.
So yes, there will always be a variance in clotting time among different people.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi, Jon,
I agree totally that blood flows very differently depending on the individual.

Also, salad greens slow down the flow of blood. I had an uncle preparing for cancer treatment and he had to stop eating salads.

I eat lots of greenery and have tried to give blood sometimes that they could not get even a pint from me. After 2-3 times, I quit attempting to donate blood -- too many sticks to no avail.

About Alice's warmth drying the ground beneath her, I'm not sure but that her clothes would have been damp if the rain had already started by the time she was killed.

We'll never know of course. But it was being said that blood clotted very quickly -- in my case, I suspect it would. But I was glad to find examples that said it wasn't necessarily a "few minutes" process.

From the diet of the time and circumstances of the people we're discussing, I wonder . . .

curious

[Wickerman]

I'm not sure it's smart resurrecting this, but I ran across something interesting in information here on Casebook about Alice McKenzie that applies directly to this.

Quoting from the victim section:
[I]The pavement beneath the body of Alice McKenzie was still dry, placing her death sometime after 12:25 A.M. and before 12:45 A.M., when it began to rain.

Hi Curious.
Allowances must be made for the fact McKenzie's body was warm, when compared to the pavement. Her warm body and clothing would have helped dry the pavement underneath her torso, even though the ground may have been wet with rain for a couple of minutes.
Her body laid in-situ for at least 25-27 minutes drying the pavement before the doctor arrived giving the impression she was attacked before it started to rain.

Having a wife who is now on blood thinners due to a heart op. we have learned that she must avoid certain foods (and perhaps drink?) which thin your blood naturally and make it slower to clot/coagulate/congeal, etc.
So yes, there will always be a variance in clotting time among different people.

Regards, Jon S.

[Mr Lucky]

Mrs Lilley doesn't give a 'time of death closer to 3.30'

Mrs Lilley connects the 'painful moan' and other sounds she hears with a train passing, she doesn't give the time. The journalist discovers that a goods train passes at 'about 3.30'. The night time goods trains were not run to the minute.

'It has been ascertained that on the morning of the date of the murder a goods train passed on the East London Railway at about half-past three' - Echo 6th Spt. 1888.

[lynn cates]

interesting

Hello Velma.

"Plenty of time for Polly to have been killed with the passing of the train."

Yes, indeed.

"Just interesting to me. Hope it might be for others."

Quite.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

An excellent point well made Velma...obviously blood clotting times may differ from person to person, and maybe with differing conditions, but it appears, as you suggest, that a time of death closer to 3.30, as per Harriet Lilley, is by no means ruled out.

All the best

Dave

Exactly, Dave. I had found just one reference that gave times I quoted earlier, but I was especially glad to find an example that actually demonstrated that.

[Cogidubnus]

An excellent point well made Velma...obviously blood clotting times may differ from person to person, and maybe with differing conditions, but it appears, as you suggest, that a time of death closer to 3.30, as per Harriet Lilley, is by no means ruled out.

All the best

Dave

[curious]

I, too, have attempted to research this, but the amount of time I found was anywhere from 2 to 4 minutes for the heart to stop beating, then 3 to 15 minutes for the blood to clot.

doing the math, at the short end, you would have 5 minutes and at the long end you would have 19 minutes for death to occur and for the oozing to stop.

curious

I'm not sure it's smart resurrecting this, but I ran across something interesting in information here on Casebook about Alice McKenzie that applies directly to this.

Quoting from the victim section:
The pavement beneath the body of Alice McKenzie was still dry, placing her death sometime after 12:25 A.M. and before 12:45 A.M., when it began to rain.

P.C. Andrews heard someone approaching the alley soon after, and ordered the man (Lewis Jacobs) to stay with the body while he went to fetch help.

1:10 A.M.: Inspector Edmund Reid arrives only moments before Dr. George Bagster Phillips. Reid notices that blood continues to flow from the throat into the gutter (about 1:09 A.M.) but it begins to clot upon the arrival of Phillips (about 1:12 A.M.)

Here we have an example of blood not clotting for quite some time.

If Alice were killed at 12:45 the latest moment possible because of the rain and Phillips arrived at 1:12 a.m that is 27 minutes. And that is the shortest amount of time possible. The longest from 12:25 to 1:12 is 42 minutes.

or you can remove 3 minutes from each -- back to Reid's reporting that the blood was flowing from the throat into the gutter about 1:09, for a flowing tie from 24 to 39 minutes.

It's probably important to note that the times were given as "about" but still a considerable time that the blood was flowing.

Plenty of time for Polly to have been killed with the passing of the train.

Just interesting to me. Hope it might be for others.

curious

[DVV]

Charlotte Colville heard a scuffling and bumping against her shutters and cries of Police! Murder!
Harriet Lilley heard a moan, two or three faint gasps, and whispers beneath her window.

Neither attended the Nichols inquest.

Mrs Green [adjacent] and Mr Purkess [opposite] heard absolutely nothing.
Both attended the Nichols inquest.

Simon

Hi Simon

According to Spratling, the only neighbours worth questioning were Purkiss and Green.
He refers to them (only them) in first report (31 Aug), and again to them (only them) at the inquest (3 Sept).
Unfortunately, he probably misunderstood Mrs Green, saying that she was "up until 4.30".

[DVV]

Merci Fish ! (Twas about Leather Apron)