The Grisly

[towboydds]

Simon,
A wonderful article that I have never seen before, thank you for sharing it.

As for the opinion of the writer, and the posters here, I still have no opinion one way or the other even after 30 years. If things written are of relevance or importance all wrapped up into one ideal. It is however very interesting to see that the writer does hit on very specific points and leaves out other points as if he/she is doing it on a purposeful stance of some sort. By word factoring only: the author of this article then presumes as a possible pen (red ink design) to one or more of the so called 'Jack' letters. Mind all who read this I was specific in 'word factoring only', so as not to be confused with other unmentioned possibilities.

Newbie thinking....DDS

[Hunter]

Good points Tom.

In the cases of Stride and Eddowes, any arterial spray would have been directed downward - not out - and any evidence of it would be hidden by the blood that collected there as the victim bled out.

[Tom_Wescott]

Arterial Spray

In Buck's Row, Nichols' neck was cut as she lay on her left side, so all spray and flow hit the ground and flowed downward, as she was on the incline ramp leading up to the stable gates.

In Hanbury Street the fence was splattered in blood.

In Dutfield's Yard, Stride's spray/flow collected in a pool on the large rock under her neck and then flowed into the makeshift gutter over which her neck was laid.

In Mitre Square there's a huge puddle to Eddowes' left where it had collected as Eddowes laid on her left side as her throat was being cut. She was then turned on her back for further mutilation.

As already noted above, Kelly's wall was splattered with blood.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Sid the Strangler

Fine...so Jack strangled them to death first, then cut their throats, then mutilated them...so what the frig happened at Millers Court? Was all that splashing a result of his throwing bits around (and later recovering them and placing them more carefully?)...or is it a total change of MO?

Or is it a different killer?

All the best

Dave

[Bridewell]

Strangulation

This has been bugging me, off and on, all day...

What evidence is there in any of the cases (possibly excluding MJK, though even there I'm not THAT sure) for arterial spray, such as one might expect from cutting a high pressure blood vessel...Yes there is some spray (cf the fence at 29 Hanbury Street) but not the great gouts I'd perhaps expect to see...

Should we perhaps be renaming this whole case "Sid the Strangler"?

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave,

Isn't it just this thought process which has led many people to the belief that JtR strangled first and then severed the carotid artery after death? I guess the former process would prevent arterial splash and the latter would confirm death.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Not so bleedin' obvious...

Hello Simon. I wonder whether the arterial spray were not greatly lessened by her being strangled?

This has been bugging me, off and on, all day...

What evidence is there in any of the cases (possibly excluding MJK, though even there I'm not THAT sure) for arterial spray, such as one might expect from cutting a high pressure blood vessel...Yes there is some spray (cf the fence at 29 Hanbury Street) but not the great gouts I'd perhaps expect to see...

Should we perhaps be renaming this whole case "Sid the Strangler"?

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Hitchcock

Hello Neil. I recall an old Alfred Hitchcock episode wherein an elderly bloke killed his wife and ground her into chicken food. Well, no need to continue, you get the idea.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

spray

Hello Simon. I wonder whether the arterial spray were not greatly lessened by her being strangled?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

Definitely "Or . . ?"

How can anything be so monumentally complicated?

See you around the side of the box.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Simon:

"PC Neil and Henry Tomkins’ accounts made nonsense of each other. Check them out for yourself. The two slaughtermen arrived in Buck’s Row before the doctor, but the doctor and two or three policemen arrived in Bucks Row before the slaughtermen."

Have a look in the Times, Simon. There, it says, Neil speaking:

"The first persons who arrived on the spot after he discovered the body were two men who worked at a slaughterhouse opposite."

Here we must disregard Mizen and Thain, I think - Neil is speaking about who arrived after that.

Next up, Tomkins, also from the Times:

"Witness (Tomkins) and Mumford first went and saw the deceased, and then Brittan followed. At that time a doctor and three or four constables were there, and witness remained there until the body was taken away."

To me, this means that Tomkins and Mumford arrived AFTER Thain and Mizen had been sent on their errands by Neil, but BEFORE the doctor got to the spot. Then Llewellyn followed in company with Thain, Mizen arrived with he ambulance, some other PC would have tagged along, and AFTER THAT, Brittan came to the spot - and "at that time a doctor and three or four constables were there".

Simple enough! Or...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Simon:

"I didn't suggest Nichols was wheeled."

Oh - my mistake, then. Sorry about that!

"Try stepping outside the box. "

I´m there already - but I´m on the opposite side from you.

The best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

The answer to your Q1, pt. 3 is "Inwards".

House of Commons Papers [Urban Authority], 1875—

[ATTACH]14097[/ATTACH]

Your Q2, 3 and 4 are merely rhetorical.

Regards,

Simon

Excellent Simon,

Many thanks.

No, they are questions that require answering.

I'm in Edwin Brough house, so apologies for the short reply.

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Fisherman,

I didn't suggest Nichols was wheeled. I merely pointed out that around 5.00 am Winthrop Street began to get crowded.

The horse-slaughterers corroborated the two cops, and the two cops corroborated the horse-slaughterers.

Yet PC Neil and Henry Tomkins’ accounts made nonsense of each other. Check them out for yourself. The two slaughtermen arrived in Buck’s Row before the doctor, but the doctor and two or three policemen arrived in Bucks Row before the slaughtermen.

Mulshaw was not asleep between 3 and 4 o'clock. He did not see any one about during that period, and did not hear any cries for assistance, or any other noise.

Why didn't Mulshaw see PC Neil?

Try stepping outside the box.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

Hi Simon!

" "There was a very small pool of blood in the pathway which had trickled from the wound in the throat, not more than would fill two wine glasses, or half a pint at the outside. This fact, and the way which the deceased was lying, made me think at the time that it was probable that the murder was committed elsewhere, and the body conveyed to Buck's row."
Her carotid artery had been severed. Where was all the blood?"

In different places, Simon. Some of it was still inside her, some had been soaked up by her clothing (Thain got extensively bloodied when lifting her onto the ambulance), and some - two glasses of it, was flowing over the pavement. No jet of blood was about, indicating that she may well have been throttled to death before she had her throat cut - or that the abdominal incisions came first.
At any rate, the blood in her was still warm and flowing as Neil shone his light on her, and that means that it would have been a very hard thing to do, to carry her a hundred yards or so, without spilling one single drop of blood on the way.

"Did anyone look for bloodstains in Winthrop Street?"

Let me put in this way - did anybody look for bloodstains in Thomas Street? Not very likelty. And why? Because it would be silly to look for blood there if there was no blood-trail leading in that direction.
Anyways, blood was looked for in for example Brady Street, and reasonably, the same went for Winthrop Street. Since you ask, though, it is probably not on record...


"Harrison Barber, Limited . . . kill 26,000 London horses a year. All night and all day the work goes on, this slaying and flaying, and boning and boiling down, and this cooking for feline food. Go to any of their depots between five and six o'clock in the morning, and you will find a long string of the pony traps and hand-carts, harrows and perambulators used in the wholesale and retail cat's-meat trade."

Ah! You are suggesting she was wheeled to Buck´s Row. That´s a useful addition to your suggestion, of course. But what about Patrick Mulshaw? He was awake between three and four in the morning. How could he have missed a merry bunch of horse-knackers wheeling a barrow over the Winthrop Street cobble-stones?

"Time was short. Perhaps somebody had to think quickly."

Somebody DID think quickly - but that somebody was not in the horse-knacking business ...

"I see nothing wrong with any of this as a working hypothesis/scenario."

Mulshaw. He is the main objection, together with the corroboration inbetween the horseslaughterers. I would also have expected the odd drop of blood beside Nichols, even if she had been wheeled there.

But I like that you think outside the box, Simon!

The best,
Fisherman

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

The answer to your Q1, pt. 3 is "Inwards".

House of Commons Papers [Urban Authority], 1875—



Your Q2, 3 and 4 are merely rhetorical.

Regards,

Simon