The Grisly

[Rubyretro]

How would he know before contact that she was a prostitute?

There are quite a few prostitutes around where I live -you can see that they are prostitutes from a very long way off. Not necessarily by their clothes, but they hang about on the street and leer at passing men (I expect that they proposition them too, but they refrain when I'm passing).

[Archaic]

Plied with Drink?

They wouldn't need money to feed their addiction if they were paid in drink.

I'm thinking about someone like a distillery carman. I've found one such who himself died of alcohol-related illness, had previously lived just south of Whitechapel High Street - and who originally trained as a butcher.

Hi Bridewell.

If the women were paid in drink, and/or plied with drink by their killer before he took them away and murdered them, wouldn't there be lots of witnesses that saw the deceased in the company of a particular man prior to her death?

There were so many prostitutes around, many of them already inebriated, that the killer didn't need to take such an unnecessary risk.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Lechmere]

Lynn
I have now seen that reference by Tomkins: 'At times women came to the place, but none came that night'. I have also seen his references to not liking the women who frequented the area: 'Oh! I know nothing about them, I don't like 'em.'
I don't think you can say with any certaintly that Nichols was one of the women who went there - I would have thought they might recognise her as a local street walker and as they had nothing to hide by admitting it.

[lynn cates]

under the certainty of heaven . . .

Hello Lechmere. There is no certainty--nor can there be--that Polly was there. And if she were, as I believe, I do not think she made it all the way to the yard. I have said elsewhere that I believe she was intercepted by her assailant.

But my conjecture explains why she were in that neighbourhood.

Cheers,
LC

[Cogidubnus]

It's a yes from me...

Hi Lynn

Conjecture as you say, but no more so than many assumptions commonly made about this case...and unlike many, intrinsically it does make a kind of sense...failing any other source of income, where else would a prostitute gravitate, but a location where there are, at that time of the night, active and relatively unsupervised men (cf leaving work early as required), and, to boot, where she, (or others like her), have possibly scored before...

Dave

[lynn cates]

4d

Hello Dave. Thanks.

If you note Tompkins testimony at inquest, he tries to distance himself from the "women who came to the yard." Which makes me think that he, or a colleague, may have spent 4d in times past.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Very, Very interesting. Are you in any position to share more at this time?

If you like:

In the 1881 census there are 3 butchers living on Buckle Street. Two of them are at the same address: John Wallace and Joseph William Haines. Haines is listed as 'brother-in-law' of Wallace, but is in fact his half-brother (same mother, different father). Haines is the younger, and was 21 in 1881, so 28 in 1888. I haven't got my paperwork with me (house-sitting) so am working from memory here. He married in 1882, but had no children and, by the time of the 1891 census was living elsewhere in east London & working as a distillery carman. He died around New Year in 1912 of cirrhosis of the liver. I can't place him in Whitechapel in 1888 though, so it would be an exaggeration to call him a suspect. (Closer to being one than Sir William Gull & the Duke of Clarence though perhaps!)

Regards, Bridewell.

[Lechmere]

But what route did she take to go from St Mary’s church on Whitechapel Road to Winthrop Street via Brown’s Stable Yard in Bucks Row (even if interruptred). I know she was drunk but...

[Cogidubnus]

Which makes me think that he, or a colleague, may have spent 4d in times past.

Yes Lynn...that was the thought that occured to me too...otherwise it was all just a tad too self-righteous!

Dave

[Bridewell]

The man in Hanbury street addressed the man he found on the stairs as "guv'nor", a hint that he was upper class (man on the stairs, I mean).

A hint that the man on the stairs was of higher status, but perhaps only slightly IMHO. Upper class is unlikely though, especially on Hanbury Street.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

plotting

Hello Lechmere. It's relatively easy to plot where Polly was when she met Oram/Holland. Now, just go up Whitechapel High st and it should come out alright. Of course, her progress was slow.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

well spotted

Hello Dave. Thanks. I think you spotted it.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

[QUOTE=Bridewell;222801]If you like:

In the 1881 census there are 3 butchers living on Buckle Street. Two of them are at the same address: John Wallace and Joseph William Haines. Haines is listed as 'brother-in-law' of Wallace, but is in fact his half-brother (same mother, different father). Haines is the younger, and was 21 in 1881, so 28 in 1888. I haven't got my paperwork with me (house-sitting) so am working from memory here. He married in 1882, but had no children and, by the time of the 1891 census was living elsewhere in east London & working as a distillery carman. He died around New Year in 1912 of cirrhosis of the liver. I can't place him in Whitechapel in 1888 though, so it would be an exaggeration to call him a suspect. (Closer to being one than Sir William Gull & the Duke of Clarence though perhaps!)

Regards, Bridewell.[/QUOTE

very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[Lechmere]

The term guv’nor could be used just as readily as ‘mate’, but some people object to being called ‘mate’ by someone who isn’t their mate. Such a person could easily address someone they did not know but of equal or even junior rank in the working class pecking order, as ‘guv’nor’.

Lynn
If Polly staggered up Whitechapel Road (to be pedantic not Whitechapel High Steet) towards Whitechapel Station and ultimately Winthrop Street then she went right passed Winthrop Street to end up at Brown’s Stable Yard.
I think it is quite possible that she had it half in mind to go there if she didn’t get custom on the way.
I think it is quite possible that the workmen there, when they went for their walk around the block half way through their shift, were actually checking out the street walkers on Whitechapel Road – which was apparently quite busy even at that time of night.
However as Polly went right passed Winthrop Street and was seemingly in company by Brown’s Stable Yard, it strongly implies she met a customer on Whitechapel Road and so had no need to go to Winthrop Street (as her ace in the hole as it were).

[curious]

So you think Eddowes was murdered by someone she bumped into by some sort of luck? Or bad luck rather.
She could hardly have known when she would be released and nor could this other party have predicted where they would be able to find her at that hour.

I think she got blind drunk by selling herself. At best she did it by offering her company to a naive punter who plied her with drink in the hope of some afters, and she then did a runner but was too drunk and got arrested.

If you have ever watched the movie "Pretty Woman" with Julia Roberts and Richard Gere, perhaps you will recall her telling him "I'm a sure thing" when he was plying her with champagne and strawberries.

There was no reason for anyone to buy these women drinks. "Afters" could be had for 4 d (whatever the heck that means) or a tiny amount of money.

Of course, we do have information that Pearly Poll and Tabram had been bar-hopping and drinking with soldiers the night Tabram was killed, so perhaps the soldiers were naive.

The fact that Eddowes sobered up so fast indicates to me that perhaps, just perhaps, she was feigning drunkness . . . now, why would that be?