The Grisly

[Phil Carter]

Phil,
proof is all over the different inquest testimonies, for their alcoholism too.
I'm not seeing this as a social stigma. These women were forced into part time prostitution through a combination of bad luck and alcoholism. Which was a social phenomenon in Victorian Whitechapel.
On the other side, we can't substract choice from the equation. There were the C5 and there were the women who organized the Match Girls' Strike.

Hello all,

The above is an example of how myth sticks,


Not only were the C5 all prostitutes (even part time) but they were all alcoholics too

fACT: REGULAR DRINKING DOES NOT MEAN A PERSON IS ADDICTED TO ALCOHOL DEPENDANCY USUALLY MEANS ALCOHOLISM.

Prove they were ALL prostitutes Maria. Prove they ALL had to do it. Especially if hopping in Kent with your lover. You know, the one she lived with for years,
You would have thought he'd have noticed.
Prove they were alcoholcs. Prove they ALL HAD to have a drink.
ALL 5 Maria. One ginny kidney wont cover it. All 5.

If you cant PROVE it, dont label. Assumption and presumption prove nothing.

Best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil. I don't know if you have me on ignore, or if you just have blinders on, but twice on this thread I've pointed out that associates of these women state or allude to the FACT that they were prostitutes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil. I don't know if you have me on ignore, or if you just have blinders on, but twice on this thread I've pointed out that associates of these women state or allude to the FACT that they were prostitutes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

My apologies. I have missed these comments. No, you are not on ignore my old adversary! A simple miss and I will rectify asap. Thanks for the reminder!

Best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

fACT: REGULAR DRINKING DOES NOT MEAN A PERSON IS ADDICTED TO ALCOHOL DEPENDANCY ALSO MEANS ALCOHOLISM.

Phil, these women were much worse off than regular drinkers or bingers. Amelia Palmer gave Chapman 2d and warned her to spend it on tea, not on rum. Timothy Donovan, the deputy at the Crossingham's Lodging House at 35 Dorset Street, Spitalfields, chastised Chapman "You can find money for your beer and you can't find money for your bed." Stride was cyclically alcohol-dependent (as witnessed by tons of people, not just Michael Kidney), the same with MJK (as witnessed by more than one witness).
You totally picked the wrong person to accuse of bias against alcoholics. Here in Germany I work with a (functional) alcoholic whom I endlessly respect, I've been in a serious relationship with an alcoholic twice, one of my best female friends was an alcoholic, I can drink AP Wolf under the table and carry him home afterwards, I'm the classic enabler, an alcoholic's wet dream. Please chill. ;-)

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. I'm not sure alcoholics are capable of wet dreams...but I digress.

Phil, no worries. But in at least some of the cases, there is absolutely no doubt as to the victim's alcoholism. These cases would be Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes, and Polly Nichols. Mary Kelly is the only one I'd hesitate to call an alcoholic.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

[QUOTE=mariab;222358]Phil, these women were much worse off than regular drinkers or bingers. Amelia Palmer gave Chapman 2d and warned her to spend it on tea, not on rum. Timothy Donovan, the deputy at the Crossingham's Lodging House at 35 Dorset Street, Spitalfields, chastised Chapman "You can find money for your beer and you can't find money for your bed." Stride was cyclically alcohol-dependent (as witnessed by tons of people, not just Michael Kidney), the same with MJK (as witnessed by more than one witness).
You totally picked the wrong person to accuse of bias against alcoholics. Here in Germany I work with a (functional) alcoholic whom I endlessly respect, I've been in a serious relationship with an alcoholic twice, one of my best female friends was an alcoholic, I can drink AP Wolf under the table and carry him home afterwards, I'm the classic enabler, an alcoholic's wet dream. Please chill. ;-) [/QUOTE

YOU have picked the wrong examples of proof. The comments PROVE nothing. It presumes by heresay only.
PROOF has to be dependancy. Regular. In all 5 cases.

your personal life has notìng to do with this thread.

Im more chilled that an iceberg. Never assume.

show me any physical post mortem indication on all 5 women that indicates. Officially indicates alcoholism.

Show me any sign of sexually transmitted desease in these 5 women.
Prostitutes very commöly had them.

Best wishes

Phil

PS i Have NOT ACCUSED YOU OF BIAS AGAINST ANYTHING! Kindly retract this accusation forthwith. Thank you

[mariab]

Hi Maria. I'm not sure alcoholics are capable of wet dreams...but I digress. {...} Mary Kelly is the only one I'd hesitate to call an alcoholic.

Depends on which stage they're at. After a while, the only wet dreams they would be able to have would be about, well, drinks.
As for MJK, she definitely had binges, which I'm aware it's not the same as a full blown alcoholic.

show me any physical post mortem indication on all 5 women that indicates. Officially indicates alcoholism.

Hearsay is enough in this case, since so many witnesses attested to their alcoholism. Eddowes' kidneys were unhealthy in relation to alcoholism. And Dr. Killeen called Tabram's heart "fatty". Don't recall about her liver.

Show me any sign of sexually transmitted desease in these 5 women. Prostitutes very commöly had them.

Very commonly but not always. The definition of being a prostitute is exchanging money for sex, for which we have sufficient proof. An SDT is irrelevant.

[Phil Carter]

Depends on which stage they're at. After a while, the only wet dreams they would be able to have would be about, well, drinks.
As for MJK, she definitely had binges, which I'm aware it's not the same as a full blown alcoholic.


Hearsay is enough in this case, since so many witnesses attested to their alcoholism. Eddowes' kidneys were unhealthy in relation to alcoholism. And Dr. Killeen called Tabram's heart "fatty". Don't recall about her liver.

Very commonly but not always. The definition of being a prostitute is exchanging money for sex, for which we have sufficient proof. An SDT is irrelevant.

Tabram isnt C5. Strlke 1
There is NO proof all of the C5 Were alcoholcs as you wrote. Strike 2
Heresay in this case is enough of a proof for you to label all 5 of these women alcoholics even thoui your comment on Kelly only shows 'binges'. Strike 3.

In Lvp London, VD was rife. Spread easily. These women were a cheap pick up according to you. Apart from Stride 20yearr previously, in another country, there is no evidence whatsoever of VD, WHICH, given the times, area, poverty, location and desperation, would have been rife at this level of prostitution.
It is therefore logical to say that any form of prostitution with these women was sporadic. Part time would be over-estimating. Occasional would be logical given total lack of VD. One might get away with it. Two perhaps. But 5 'prostitutes' in this area? All symptom free?

4 werent called prostitutes on the death cert. Political correctness in NOT writing that label doesnt cut it. 2 weeks before her death, MjK had a lover who lived with her, what would YOU call her THEN? A prostitute?
Best wishes

Phil

[Dave O]

Hi,

Once elected, the tenure of coroners was for life, they didn't stand for re-election. In the counties, you'd get a messy, very expensive election when the old coroner died, resigned, or had done something to get tossed out of office by the Lord Chancellor.

Best,
Dave

[Roy Corduroy]

Police Nulification

We know the police referred to each and every one of the Canonical Five victims as prostitutes. In police reports written during the investigation. Stewart Evans was kind enough to post each and every one of the original reports up here on the screen at Casebook. For Simon's benefit.

Remember, Simon?

So the real argument here is police nulification. So if Simon, Phil, anyone, you are calling the police liars, just come out and say that. Right? Stop beating around the bush. And not that you disagree with what Anderson wrote in his book, or Macnaghten put in his report six years later, or what Swanson jotted in the margin. No, you must be saying that as the police wrote up their reports during the actual murders, they were making up lies as they went. Right there on the spot in 1888.

Which means anything and everything in the police reports in the entire Evans and Skinner book could very well be false. If they were hot for Isenschmidt, who cares? And so forth and so on.

If that's your concept, that nothing the police said can be believed, why don't you just come out and say that?

Or do we continue the prarie dog show. Pop in. Pop out.

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

If you read through the original police reports I think you'll find that Stride was the only victim described as a prostitute.

Regards,

Simon

[harry]

As regards the description of Kelly,on her death certificate,as prostitute,is it clear that the person who entered that description,had a good knowledge of the victim?
I go along with the view ,that casual se xual relations,even if given in exchange for cash or gifts,can hardly label the woman who provides the sex as professional prostitute,or that a liking for the occasional over indulgence in drink makes one a drunkard.However a combination of both might be seen by some as less than ideal in the normal? female,and sadly the trait seems to have been a characteristic of all Ripper victims.Is it misleading to allow that it was a likely motive in their deaths?

[Fisherman]

Tom W:

"A 30 year old might LOOK middle-aged, and a middle-aged person might look 30 (Johnny Depp!), but that does not make a 30 year old middle-aged in terms of common vernacular. In the case of Stride, you have two separate individuals, seen at different times, wearing similar clothing; trying to bring their age gap closer through semantics and academic statistics in order to bolster an already untenable theory is nothing I want part of. "

Right, Tom - so let´s turn to the sources!

”Frederick News”, November 10, 1888:
”The first Whitechapel murder occurred a year ago last month in that section of London where the scum of the vile dens of vice are let loose upon the streets in the early morning, when the police close up the brothels infested by them. The victim was a fallen woman past middle age and her body was found horribly and peculiarly mutilated. But it was supposed to be only a murder common among her class. No effort was made to discover the murderer, and the body was buried in Potter's field unidentified and the case forgotten.
The second murder did not occur until Aug 7 last, but it was unmistakeable the work of the same hand. The victim was again a fallen and dissolute woman, Martha Turner...”

So, Tom, Emma Smith, at 45, was PAST middle age.

And Walter Dew describes Charles Cross like this:

”No better illustration of East-End conditions at the time could be afforded than by the behaviour of Charles Cross, a middle-aged carman, who was the first to see the body.”

Cross, of course, was 38.

And here is what Matthew Pacer said, as recorded in the East London Observer on the 6:th of October 1888:

”On Saturday night about 11:45 a man and woman came, he says, to his shop window, and asked for some fruit. The man was middle-aged, perhaps 35 years; about 5ft. 7in. in height; was stout, square built; wore a wideawake hat and dark clothes; had the appearance of a clerk; had a rough voice and a quick, sharp way of talking.”

And there you go, Tom: A ”middle-aged” man, somewhere around 35 years of age.

It is important not to mix up our OWN takes on what middle-age means with what the people thought back in 1888. Therefore we should preferably only use contemporary sources, looking for our answer. And that answer is clear by now (once again): Emma Smith was PAST middle-age at 45, whereas men of 35 or 38 WERE middle-aged.

More information:

"In 1950, those born in or before 1920 were over 30: they were regarded as middle aged, and could not eadily find outside work in the town or city"

(from "Conflict in a globalising world: studies in honour of Peter Kloos", 2002)

Things change, Tom. All of Henry VIII´s wives were considered middle-aged when they married him. And Catherine Howard was 15 at that stage ...

All the best,
Fisherman

[Hunter]

Show me any sign of sexually transmitted desease in these 5 women.
Prostitutes very commöly had them.

Hi Phil,

Hope your health is improving and everything finds you well.

We really don't know if any of the so-called 'canonicals' had sexually transmitted diseases at the time of their deaths. Unfortunately, all of the post-mortem reports have not survived. Those would have provided much more detail about the general physical condition of the victims than the medical testimonies given at the inquest; the testimonies largely concentrating on the physical evidence of the murders themselves. Of course, Gordon Brown did testify in his written statement that he saw no evidence of intercourse in the case of Catherine Eddowes.

Fortunately - although not a canonical - Mr. Phillips' post-mortem report on Alice McKenzie has survived and gives us a glimpse into the very detailed examinations that took place; information that would not be relayed at an inquest.
From Phillips' post-mortem report, July 22, 1889:

'Genital signs.

There is no sign of coitus.
Syphilitic Condylomata of vagina and ulceration of mucus membrane under clitoris.'

Phillips went on to state that the victim had hemorrhoids.

[lynn cates]

H O reports

Hello Simon. I think that the Home Office reports on Polly and Annie listed "prostitute."

Cheers.
LC