The Grisly

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lechmere,

Elizabeth Strides' death certificate reads "Widow of John Thomas Stride, Carpenter."

Catherine Eddowes' death certificate reads "Supposed single woman."

Annie Chapman's death certificate reads "Widow of John Chapman, Coachman."

Polly Nichols' death certificate reads "Wife of William Nichols, Printing Machinist."

One out of five is hardly a landslide.

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Maria,

Please call me Simon.

Schwartz's non-attendance at Stride's inquest is indeed a conundrum; especially when he was interviewed by Abberline, and Swanson wrote something along the lines of there being no reason to suppose he wasn't telling the truth.

It's odd that Coroner Baxter was happy to waste an inordinate amount of valuable court time on the ramblings of Mary Malcolm and her equally batty [I'm being blackmailed] trigamist sister, but excluded the one witness whose description of Stride's assailant might have given the lie to the double-event.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hi Lechmere,

Elizabeth Strides' death certificate reads "Widow of John Thomas Stride, Carpenter."

Catherine Eddowes' death certificate reads "Supposed single woman."

Annie Chapman's death certificate reads "Widow of John Chapman, Coachman."

Polly Nichols' death certificate reads "Wife of William Nichols, Printing Machinist."

One out of five is hardly a landslide.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

I wonder what she would have been described as if Barnett had still been 'together' with her. Like 10-14 days previously. I don't think she would have been decribed as a prostitute if she had had a live-in lover.
Why then is she NOW a 'prostitute'? why not 'supposedly single'etc?

'5 East End low life prostiutes' adds to the melodrama somewhat.

best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

The death certificate non mentioning things might have been out of simple courtesy.

Hi Maria,
Please call me Simon.

Simon it is.

and Swanson wrote something along the lines of there being no reason to suppose he wasn't telling the truth.

Yep, which to me proves that the question had been raised.

It's odd that Coroner Baxter was happy to waste an inordinate amount of valuable court time on the ramblings of Mary Malcolm and her equally batty [I'm being blackmailed] trigamist sister, but excluded the one witness whose description of Stride's assailant might have given the lie to the double-event.

It appears that Baxter had mellowed down considerably between earlier inquests and the Stride one. Mostly pertaining to his demeanor with the police.
What do you mean exactly by "might have given the lie"?

[Cogidubnus]

Elizabeth Strides' death certificate reads "Widow of John Thomas Stride, Carpenter."

Catherine Eddowes' death certificate reads "Supposed single woman."

Annie Chapman's death certificate reads "Widow of John Chapman, Coachman."

Polly Nichols' death certificate reads "Wife of William Nichols, Printing Machinist."

One out of five is hardly a landslide.

Simon that is simply unfair...you are taunting Lechmere with facts...

Dave

[Phil Carter]

The death certificat
e non mentioning things might have been out of simple courtesy.

Hello Maria,


My apologies- but surely in a 1 in 5 case evidence situation, the emphasis is on the normal vis a vis the abnormal. In 4 out of 5 cases the simple answer is that they were NOT, even after a post mortem and inquest officially prostitutes. The exception seems to an an emphasis on prostitution in the Kelly death certificate. 2 weeks before, she had a live in lover- ipso facto she wasnt described as a prostitute then.

Another thing about these so called prostitutes is the remarkable fact that not one of them had- even after lengthy post mortems- signs of the clap or the pox which were rife at the time.

Amazing for a prostitute.

Best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

Hello Phil,
Eddowes, Stride, and MJK appear to have been part-time prostitutes. Depending on their financial/domestic situation. Alcoholism was certainly a factor.
We have evidence of Stride having been treated already in Sweden for veneral disease.

[Lechmere]

Maria
"As for Baxter, he had won a narrow victory over Dr. Macdonald in filling the late Sir John Humphrey's seat as coroner for the Eastern District with the support of the Jewish community, and since May 1888 that district had been subdivided into the Northeastern and Southeastern districts, with Baxter retaining the Southeastern district with his political rival, Macdonald, retaining the other. Baxter was also instrumental in publicly exonerating Pizer. He was as much in need of the Jewish vote as a New Yorker or a Floridian candidate."
The Local Government Act 1888 received Royal Assent on 13th August 1888 and came into effect in London on 21 March 1889. This led to what we would now recognise as regular local elections taking placed and the abolition of elections for coroners. The East End became part of the new County of London.
This being the case, by the autumn of terror Baxter had no fear of being elected out of office.

Simon
True the death certificates of the other C5 victims did not mention their profession. However Kelly's seems to knock back those who sentimentally try to paint her as a latter day saint, and some had been doubting it on this thread.
It is fairly well established at their inquests that Nichols and Chapman were soliciting to get their lodging house money.
Stride had been a registered prostitute and her beahviour on the night of her death is one of a woman soliciting.
As for Eddowes, her beahviour on the day before she died leaves little doubt that she had been actively soliciting prior to and after her arrest.

[lynn cates]

behaviour

Hello Lechmere.

"As for Eddowes, her behaviour on the day before she died leaves little doubt that she had been actively soliciting prior to and after her arrest."

Umm? What, particularly? Having someone buy her drinks until she was intoxicated then leaving without a trace?

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lechmere,

Stride had been a registered prostitute.

Eddowes . . . had been actively soliciting prior to and after her arrest.

May I ask the source for these assertions?

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Fisherman, thank you for providing the DT quote regarding Lawende’s man. Shabby he was!

Jon and Fish,

You both are coming off like Dave Yost here, who tried desperately get all the men Stride was with that night to be one (my favorite line in his book is “the young man was middle-aged”). 30 wasn’t and isn’t middle-aged. Let’s not get into statistics and semantics. Nobody describes a 30 year old as middle-aged. A 30 year old might LOOK middle-aged, and a middle-aged person might look 30 (Johnny Depp!), but that does not make a 30 year old middle-aged in terms of common vernacular. In the case of Stride, you have two separate individuals, seen at different times, wearing similar clothing; trying to bring their age gap closer through semantics and academic statistics in order to bolster an already untenable theory is nothing I want part of. And my apologies to Jon Guy for my tone here, because it’s not aimed at him, but mainly to Fish who I’ve been through ALL of this with before.

But why exactly do you believe that, Tom?

Surely the police or press reports would have stated that fact if fact it was.

What police reports? We don’t have his statement. And there’s only one press interview with Schwartz, where he in fact states that up until that day he lived on Berner Street and his wife was moving in his absence to their new pad on Ellen Street. Schwartz was a young Hungarian Jewish immigrant who didn’t speak English; The Berner Street club provided free temporary board to such people. I’ve looked and haven’t found another place on Berner Street that did. Now, when we consider that Schwartz turned on Commercial Road and remained on the club side of Berner Street, that’s a likely indicator his old residence (where he told the Star reporter he was headed) was on that side of the street, and therefore we’ve now eliminated 50% of Berner Street as the location of his previous home. Consider that although he spotted the couple talking in the pathway ahead, and then quarreling, it was not until he was absolutely on top of them that he crossed the road, and even then he stopped and turned back. Why? I suggest it’s because they were blocking his entrance. If his old residence was NOT the club, then why didn’t he run to IT and lock the door? I’m sure there’s a reason, but adding it all up together, I’d say it’s likely that Schwartz was affiliated with the club. Imagine that you lived on a street in a foreign country where there was a club with people your exact age, your heritage, and spoke your language. Would you remain strangers for long?

Maria,

Please let me first answer the questions posed to me before you try to answer them, at least when it's about a theory of my own invention.

Simon,

Schwartz was not at the inquest because he was being kept under wraps. The Star reporter had to snake him out, and two weeks later, you have Abberline and Swanson pretty much saying he’s the best witness they have, just as Lawende was the best the City had.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The Local Government Act 1888 received Royal Assent on 13th August 1888 and came into effect in London on 21 March 1889. This led to what we would now recognise as regular local elections taking placed and the abolition of elections for coroners. The East End became part of the new County of London.This being the case, by the autumn of terror Baxter had no fear of being elected out of office.

Thanks so much for the information, Lechmere. I'm only starting to get informed in Victorian local Whitechapel politics, until recently I was only versed in the anarchists' question. Still, it appears to me that Baxter might have continued his taking into consideration of the Jewish local question out of routine, if nothing else, esp. since the abolition of elections for coroners only came into effect 7 months after the Stride inquest.

[mariab]

Maria,
Please let me first answer the questions posed to me before you try to answer them, at least when it's about a theory of my own invention.

Sorry. (And when discussing this earlier in this thread, I've quoted you.)

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil,
Eddowes, Stride, and MJK appear to have been part-time prostitutes. Depending on their financial/domestic situation. Alcoholism was certainly a factor.
We have evidence of Stride having been treated already in Sweden for veneral disease.

Hello Maria.

Honestly, how hard is this to understand?
The fact that alcohol was involved DOES NOT make them acoholics!
Neither does drinking mean they were prostitutes!
Part-time? Try 'occasionally known to prostitute themselves for emergency income needs' otherwise hawkers, etc. (and you'll have to show the amount of times each woman was known to prostitute themselves to qualify for the title 'part-time'.)

Re- Stride. That was 20years or so before! 'Known to have once HAVING been treated for VD 20 YEARS PREVIOUSLY doesnt make her a prostitute either! She had for a long time previously had a regular lover- AND she was known to clean houses for money.

So WHERE IN 5 CASES of so called women prostittutes- is there ANY evidence of VD on any of these women given minute post mortem examination?

The clap and the pox were rife- yet these 'prostitutes' had nowt.
Remarkable.

Eddowes had a regular long tern lover. Stride had the same until shortly before her death. MJK likewise. Chapman was a known hawker.

Prostitutes? Even part time? All 5?
Prove it. i challenge you.

Its all part of the melodrama. These were poor down at heel women on the limits of poverty. They MAY have turned to the occasional money earner to find food or a bed for the night. Many women DIDNT find either. And slept in the streets and alleyways. They MAY have been forced into such like too. It doesnt make them prostitutes or even part time ones. Even if drink was involved!

Best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

Phil,
proof is all over the different inquest testimonies, for their alcoholism too.
I'm not seeing this as a social stigma. These women were forced into part time prostitution through a combination of bad luck and alcoholism. Which was a social phenomenon in Victorian Whitechapel.
On the other side, we can't substract choice from the equation. There were the C5 and there were the women who organized the Match Girls' Strike.