The Grisly

[curious]

[QUOTE=Bridewell;222801]If you like:

In the 1881 census there are 3 butchers living on Buckle Street. Two of them are at the same address: John Wallace and Joseph William Haines. Haines is listed as 'brother-in-law' of Wallace, but is in fact his half-brother (same mother, different father). Haines is the younger, and was 21 in 1881, so 28 in 1888. I haven't got my paperwork with me (house-sitting) so am working from memory here. He married in 1882, but had no children and, by the time of the 1891 census was living elsewhere in east London & working as a distillery carman. He died around New Year in 1912 of cirrhosis of the liver. I can't place him in Whitechapel in 1888 though, so it would be an exaggeration to call him a suspect. (Closer to being one than Sir William Gull & the Duke of Clarence though perhaps!)

Regards, Bridewell.[/QUOTE

very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[lynn cates]

well spotted

Hello Dave. Thanks. I think you spotted it.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

plotting

Hello Lechmere. It's relatively easy to plot where Polly was when she met Oram/Holland. Now, just go up Whitechapel High st and it should come out alright. Of course, her progress was slow.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

The man in Hanbury street addressed the man he found on the stairs as "guv'nor", a hint that he was upper class (man on the stairs, I mean).

A hint that the man on the stairs was of higher status, but perhaps only slightly IMHO. Upper class is unlikely though, especially on Hanbury Street.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Which makes me think that he, or a colleague, may have spent 4d in times past.

Yes Lynn...that was the thought that occured to me too...otherwise it was all just a tad too self-righteous!

Dave

[Lechmere]

But what route did she take to go from St Mary’s church on Whitechapel Road to Winthrop Street via Brown’s Stable Yard in Bucks Row (even if interruptred). I know she was drunk but...

[Bridewell]

Very, Very interesting. Are you in any position to share more at this time?

If you like:

In the 1881 census there are 3 butchers living on Buckle Street. Two of them are at the same address: John Wallace and Joseph William Haines. Haines is listed as 'brother-in-law' of Wallace, but is in fact his half-brother (same mother, different father). Haines is the younger, and was 21 in 1881, so 28 in 1888. I haven't got my paperwork with me (house-sitting) so am working from memory here. He married in 1882, but had no children and, by the time of the 1891 census was living elsewhere in east London & working as a distillery carman. He died around New Year in 1912 of cirrhosis of the liver. I can't place him in Whitechapel in 1888 though, so it would be an exaggeration to call him a suspect. (Closer to being one than Sir William Gull & the Duke of Clarence though perhaps!)

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

4d

Hello Dave. Thanks.

If you note Tompkins testimony at inquest, he tries to distance himself from the "women who came to the yard." Which makes me think that he, or a colleague, may have spent 4d in times past.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

It's a yes from me...

Hi Lynn

Conjecture as you say, but no more so than many assumptions commonly made about this case...and unlike many, intrinsically it does make a kind of sense...failing any other source of income, where else would a prostitute gravitate, but a location where there are, at that time of the night, active and relatively unsupervised men (cf leaving work early as required), and, to boot, where she, (or others like her), have possibly scored before...

Dave

[lynn cates]

under the certainty of heaven . . .

Hello Lechmere. There is no certainty--nor can there be--that Polly was there. And if she were, as I believe, I do not think she made it all the way to the yard. I have said elsewhere that I believe she was intercepted by her assailant.

But my conjecture explains why she were in that neighbourhood.

Cheers,
LC

[Lechmere]

Lynn
I have now seen that reference by Tomkins: 'At times women came to the place, but none came that night'. I have also seen his references to not liking the women who frequented the area: 'Oh! I know nothing about them, I don't like 'em.'
I don't think you can say with any certaintly that Nichols was one of the women who went there - I would have thought they might recognise her as a local street walker and as they had nothing to hide by admitting it.

[Archaic]

Plied with Drink?

They wouldn't need money to feed their addiction if they were paid in drink.

I'm thinking about someone like a distillery carman. I've found one such who himself died of alcohol-related illness, had previously lived just south of Whitechapel High Street - and who originally trained as a butcher.

Hi Bridewell.

If the women were paid in drink, and/or plied with drink by their killer before he took them away and murdered them, wouldn't there be lots of witnesses that saw the deceased in the company of a particular man prior to her death?

There were so many prostitutes around, many of them already inebriated, that the killer didn't need to take such an unnecessary risk.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Rubyretro]

How would he know before contact that she was a prostitute?

There are quite a few prostitutes around where I live -you can see that they are prostitutes from a very long way off. Not necessarily by their clothes, but they hang about on the street and leer at passing men (I expect that they proposition them too, but they refrain when I'm passing).

[curious4]

Simon:

""Old man" was a non age-specific greeting popular amongst British upper middle class men..."

... which of course is the exact grouping we are dealing with here! Thanks for chipping in, Simon - I learn more abut the curious Brits every day.

All the best,
Fisherman

If Jack was "posh Jack" presumably he would have used a greeting he was accustomed to use? The man in Hanbury street addressed the man he found on the stairs as "guv'nor", a hint that he was upper class (man on the stairs, I mean).

C4

[Lechmere]

And red grant's over familiar usage of 'old man' to someone he had just been introduced to (bond) was enough for bond to know that red grant was not an English gentleman, and by definition must be an enemy agent.