The Grisly

[Lechmere]

Lynn
If you are right about prostitutes frequenting the butcher's yard then it implies the local beat police were in some way or another in on it.
It is of course possible that Polly was on here way to the yard if it was such a place.
However as Brown's Stable Yard is past Winthrop Street, it strongly implies that Polly met someone on Whitechapel Road, before she got to Winthrop Street. She then by-passed Winthrop Street with her client and went to Bucks Row where her client became her murderer.
That, anyway, is the logical sequence of events.
It leaves little room for Polly to bump into Iscenschmidt on Bucks Row in a totally drunken state and to be slaughtered as a sheep - I should have thought. To get to Bucks Row she would have had to have by-passed Winthrop Street.

This whole matter highlights two things in my opinion.
Firstly the beat police were regularly covering for each other and skiving.
Secondly the inquest was not very probing and nor were the press at this stage - otherwise the issue of prostitiutes using the butchers yard would have been raised and Tomkins remarks should have been picked up on at the time.
This is in essence how I see the case being conducted at this stage in the overall case.

[Bridewell]

It was common practice for PCs to stop on business premises for the odd cuppa, fly smoke and a chat.

In fact, it was encouraged to a degree and is kinda mentioned in the regulations. This for two reasons, one it builds up good rapport between the PCs and those who worked in or ran businesses on their beats.

Hi Monty,

I suspect it still is common practise, and for much the same reason. Police officers on nights keep an eye on others doing the same - at least the good'uns do. The bad'uns are either "Moths" (never stray far from a lamp-post), or "Olympic Flames" (never go out).

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

ample

Hello Lechmere. Thanks.

"And as I said, we know the butcher’s yard of Harrison, Barber and Co was frequented by beat policemen. Is it likely that it was also frequented by prostitutes?"

Well, if we take note of Tomkins remark, I find it QUITE likely. Are you suggesting that there was no place in the yard or nearby that could not be used for a tryst? Buck's Row, itself, was secluded and more than ample for the task.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Lynn
Brown’s Stable Yard – i.e. the doorway where Polly’s body was found.
And as I said, we know the butcher’s yard of Harrison, Barber and Co was frequented by beat policemen. Is it likely that it was also frequented by prostitutes? If so do you think the beat policemen ‘joined in’?
The beat policemen must have known that the butcher’s shop was also being used as a knocking shop... if it was.
That is what I mean by extrapolating from a possible throw away remark, without having anything else to substantiate it or to lend weight to a supposition.

Curious
If it makes up for my unkind remark, in the Kathleen Turner (a much more attractive proposition than Julia Roberts) film ‘Crimes of Passion’ she plays a prostitute. Anthony Perkins plays a punter who develops ‘feelings’ for her.
And in ‘Pretty Woman’ why was Gere plying Roberts with champagne and strawberries? Because he felt more comfortable doing that. She said ‘I’m a sure thing’ in order to exert control and to be provocative... and as part of the storyline.
As for where I get my info – painstaking research and hours of Jerry Springer.

You've made me laugh! I've never seen Springer (well, for more than just a minute or two channel surfing) and I don't think even in the name of research I could take that on.

[Lechmere]

Lynn
Brown’s Stable Yard – i.e. the doorway where Polly’s body was found.
And as I said, we know the butcher’s yard of Harrison, Barber and Co was frequented by beat policemen. Is it likely that it was also frequented by prostitutes? If so do you think the beat policemen ‘joined in’?
The beat policemen must have known that the butcher’s shop was also being used as a knocking shop... if it was.
That is what I mean by extrapolating from a possible throw away remark, without having anything else to substantiate it or to lend weight to a supposition.

Curious
If it makes up for my unkind remark, in the Kathleen Turner (a much more attractive proposition than Julia Roberts) film ‘Crimes of Passion’ she plays a prostitute. Anthony Perkins plays a punter who develops ‘feelings’ for her.
And in ‘Pretty Woman’ why was Gere plying Roberts with champagne and strawberries? Because he felt more comfortable doing that. She said ‘I’m a sure thing’ in order to exert control and to be provocative... and as part of the storyline.
As for where I get my info – painstaking research and hours of Jerry Springer.

[lynn cates]

good sense

Hello Neil. All of which makes perfectly good sense. And if one of the Harrison boys had an occasional tryst with an "unfortunate," it would not pay to advertise the fact.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alternate

Hello (again) Lechmere. Why is it a throw away remark? A perfectly good alternative would be:

"Women? Prostitutes? No, never seen any. But there might have been some a few blocks away."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Harrison Barber

Hello Lechmere. By "Brown’s Stable Yard" do you mean Harrison, Barber and Co?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

On the stair

Hello Bridewell,

Slumming was still a popular pastime - although the man om the stairs could have had a more sinister purpose. Casing the joint perhaps?
(if the expression is still in use)

Best wishes,
C4

[Monty]

It was common practice for PCs to stop on business premises for the odd cuppa, fly smoke and a chat.

In fact, it was encouraged to a degree and is kinda mentioned in the regulations. This for two reasons, one it builds up good rapport between the PCs and those who worked in or ran businesses on their beats.

Two, those on the premises can update the PCs as to what illegalities have gone on whilst the Bobby was elsewhere on his beat.

However, there were downsides. Some PCs took liberties with this 'arrangement' and those on the other side took advantage.

However, my point is that its not cut n shut Thain was neglecting his duties by staying for a chat. That said, if it was persistant then he would have been reprimanded if caught out more than once.

Monty

[curious]

I would be cautious of using 'Pretty Woman' as evidence for behaviour patterns.

How funny. Thanks for the laugh. I was not using a movie except for a quick and very true line.

Women in that particular line of work ARE a sure thing. No courting is needed.

On the other hand, I accept your learned opinion that some fellas like doing the "girlfriend experience"

I get my vocabulary from TV and won't be tactless and ask how you know what you know.

[Lechmere]

I have been thinking about the possibility that the horse butchers' yard was frequented by ladies of ill repute.
The problem is it was also frequented by the local plod.
Thain kept his cape there and seems to have popped in and out for a chat. If memory serves Neil also checked the yard out while on his beat.
Maybe the local police were 'in on it' and even participated? Is that why Thain was coy about leaving his cape there and why he denied telling the three butchers about Polly's death?
Maybe.
But we are supposing a lot from one throw away remark made by Tomkins who comes across as a card board cut out cockney wide boy oik.

[Lechmere]

Curious
Regular drinkers often sober up quickly and get drunk quickly as they usually have large amounts of alcohol in their system and are always half cut.
You have answered your own question about some punyters being naive. Some like to think that the prostitute is sort of their girl friend and comfort themselves by buying them drinks as if it were a date and not just a financial transaction.
I would be cautious of using 'Pretty Woman' as evidence for behaviour patterns.

[curious]

So you think Eddowes was murdered by someone she bumped into by some sort of luck? Or bad luck rather.
She could hardly have known when she would be released and nor could this other party have predicted where they would be able to find her at that hour.

I think she got blind drunk by selling herself. At best she did it by offering her company to a naive punter who plied her with drink in the hope of some afters, and she then did a runner but was too drunk and got arrested.

If you have ever watched the movie "Pretty Woman" with Julia Roberts and Richard Gere, perhaps you will recall her telling him "I'm a sure thing" when he was plying her with champagne and strawberries.

There was no reason for anyone to buy these women drinks. "Afters" could be had for 4 d (whatever the heck that means) or a tiny amount of money.

Of course, we do have information that Pearly Poll and Tabram had been bar-hopping and drinking with soldiers the night Tabram was killed, so perhaps the soldiers were naive.

The fact that Eddowes sobered up so fast indicates to me that perhaps, just perhaps, she was feigning drunkness . . . now, why would that be?

[Lechmere]

The term guv’nor could be used just as readily as ‘mate’, but some people object to being called ‘mate’ by someone who isn’t their mate. Such a person could easily address someone they did not know but of equal or even junior rank in the working class pecking order, as ‘guv’nor’.

Lynn
If Polly staggered up Whitechapel Road (to be pedantic not Whitechapel High Steet) towards Whitechapel Station and ultimately Winthrop Street then she went right passed Winthrop Street to end up at Brown’s Stable Yard.
I think it is quite possible that she had it half in mind to go there if she didn’t get custom on the way.
I think it is quite possible that the workmen there, when they went for their walk around the block half way through their shift, were actually checking out the street walkers on Whitechapel Road – which was apparently quite busy even at that time of night.
However as Polly went right passed Winthrop Street and was seemingly in company by Brown’s Stable Yard, it strongly implies she met a customer on Whitechapel Road and so had no need to go to Winthrop Street (as her ace in the hole as it were).