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31st August = Bank Holiday?

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  • Adam Went
    replied
    Hey all,

    Tom:

    In a case where there is little evidence, the next thing is to try and work out patterns, and then apply that to the likelihood of certain suspects or certain theories. I believe that the weekend/holiday killings is a pattern - you're right that it might not always be "overlooked" but it is at times, especially in the arena of suspect based research.

    A jobless vagabond is available to kill on any night of the week, because of course they rarely if ever have anything to tie them down at any one time. On the flip side, somebody who is holding down regular employment may only be capable of going out into the wee hours of the morning on a weekend.

    Also, the point has been raised by a couple of posters that prostitutes would be more likely to be out and about on the weekend - this is only true to a point. There was thousands of women who made their living on the streets, they would have been out in order to survive regardless of whether it was Saturday night or Wednesday night.

    Robert:

    What if - to tie in with Tom's comments about a seaman - the dock fires in some way prevented the killer from going to work on that particular day?
    Just thinking out loud.

    K-453:

    I appreciate what you're saying, but at the same time I think the whole "wouldn't go out during the week" theory is being overplayed a little. In 2011, that would be more the case, but in 1888, going out and drinking or going to the theatre was just about the only entertainment people had. No going home to play Call of Duty on the Playstation. Victorian workers would often work a 12 hour day, then go straight to the pub, then get a few hours sleep and then go back and do it all over again.

    It's not as if the pubs and streets were deserted during the working week in Victorian London.

    Cheers,
    Adam.

    Leave a comment:


  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Patience

    Give it time, Monty. Give it time.

    Regards,

    Simon

    Leave a comment:


  • Monty
    replied
    Simon,

    I was just doing some trawling, found a Manchester Guardian article (same as the Daily News) and just about to post when I see you have already beaten me to the punch, thank you.

    It seems H division had men on standby at Commercial St nick, which isn't that far from Dorset Street, rather than at the parade itself.

    Of course 31 H is actually Badham, of Hutchinson fame...and Hanbury St....and Castle Alley. I'm surprised he hasn't been labelled a suspect too.

    Monty

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  • Simon Wood
    replied
    Hi Maria,

    Daily News, 10th November 1888—

    "Inspector Beck and Sergeant Betham, 31 H, who were in charge of about forty constables who had been held in readiness in anticipation of a possible Socialist disturbance attending the Lord Mayor's Show, at once proceeded to the scene of the murder, running to the house as quickly as they could. By this time the news had spread so rapidly that over a thousand persons were gathered in the street, and these were rapidly cleared away from the court and the side of Dorset Street adjoining, while the Inspector entered the house."

    What an astonishing stroke of luck that, with the Lord Mayor's Show going on, H Division had so many men ready to seal off Dorset Street.

    Regards,

    Simon

    Leave a comment:


  • mariab
    replied
    Makes total sense Monty, and thank you so much, though I really need to read up on this. I might have some questions (also pertaining to the WVC and a Star request for the formation of committees). Is it OK if I asked you when I'm done reading up?

    Leave a comment:


  • Monty
    replied
    Maria,

    The Lord Mayors show is more a celebration than a holiday.

    Also, it occured in the City and came under the City of Londons Police Force to maintain. However we do have the fact that Dorset Street was patrolled by a member of Lambeth Division. Now this could be down to the reinforcements bought in to subsidise H Division or because some H Division had been drawn in to suppliment the City force on Mayors show day, thus calling the L division bobby

    Personally I feel its the former, with the City boys possibly dragging in supplements from Divisions further afield who were not suppling men to H division.

    I hope this post makes sense.

    Monty

    Leave a comment:


  • mariab
    replied
    Originally posted by Monty View Post
    The average Victorian either got paid weekly or daily, I do not recall seeing any reference to monthly payments. That is a more modern thing tied in with computer banking.
    Thanks Monty. I had no idea about this.
    When you say that you feel that “the timing of the crimes is more victim oriented“, do you mean as in opportunity? That the perp went through some dry runs? This might explain the late (or early) hour for Chapman, who incidentally happened in a very short gap after Nichols. As if the perp could hardly contain himself.

    Choosing a big, official holiday for MJK can be seen as symbolic, an “up yours“, but also as in calculating that the police would be busy otherwise.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom_Wescott
    replied
    Originally posted by K-453
    Kelly was killed on the day of Lord Mayor's Show. As far as I know, not all, but at least a lot of people were off work then.

    If not the theory is true 'Jack' chose this day to get the most attention.
    Quite possible. Another possibility is that he chose the one day that month when the police would be otherwise occupied.

    Originally posted by lynn cates
    Hello Tom. Whit Monday is the day after Whitsun--the "Day of Pentecost." It is a church calendar entity. The week after that Sunday is usually referred to as Whitsuntide.

    If you like, I can send a copy of the annual church calendar. A bit complex but informative.
    Hi Lynn, thanks for that. I think you answered my question.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Leave a comment:


  • K-453
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert View Post
    Nichols was killed in the early hours of Friday, as was Kelly, so I feel the weekend angle is a red herring.
    Kelly was killed on the day of Lord Mayor's Show. As far as I know, not all, but at least a lot of people were off work then.

    If not the theory is true 'Jack' chose this day to get the most attention.

    Leave a comment:


  • K-453
    replied
    Originally posted by Adam Went View Post
    I think it must be confused with Martha Tabram's death
    Agree.


    Originally posted by Adam Went View Post
    ... that all the canonical killings and even a couple of the attacks outside the canon, including that of Tabram, occurred on holidays or weekends.
    Probably on weekends and holidays happened a lot more violence than on other days anyway, for the reasons named in this thread. People had the money and the time to get drunk.

    That does not have to indicate the non-canonical attacks were also Ripper work, but just that 'Jack' was not the only one who had the weekend off.


    So the 31st of August most likely was not a day off work. At least for the majority. It is still possible 'Jack' did not have to work then, for what reasons ever. Or was tough enough to go without sleep the one or other night.

    Leave a comment:


  • lynn cates
    replied
    church calendar

    Hello Tom. Whit Monday is the day after Whitsun--the "Day of Pentecost." It is a church calendar entity. The week after that Sunday is usually referred to as Whitsuntide.

    If you like, I can send a copy of the annual church calendar. A bit complex but informative.

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Robert
    replied
    Nichols was killed in the early hours of Friday, as was Kelly, so I feel the weekend angle is a red herring.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monty
    replied
    Re pay

    The average Victorian either got paid weekly or daily, I do not recall seeing any reference to monthly payments.

    That is a more modern thing tied in with computer banking.

    Monty

    Leave a comment:


  • Monty
    replied
    Maybe this will help.

    http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...1888&country=9

    Bank holidays all stemmed from the numerous holidays and festivals celerbarted throughout the years which were consolidated into 4 handy holidays where the Banks closed for those days.

    With the banks closed, the majority of trading ceased, though pubs have a bumper day.

    It must be remembered that Saturdays and Sundays are religious days for the two predominant religions in the area, some traded, some did not. However the timing of the crimes, I feel, is more victim orientated.

    Monty

    Leave a comment:


  • mariab
    replied
    Originally posted by Adam Went View Post
    IMO, it indicates that Jack was occupied during the working week, perhaps indicating he held down some sort of regular employment, as opposed to the popular image of him being an insane vagabond who did nothing but roam the streets searching for his next victim.
    Agree that the crime dates could be seen as an indication that the killer might have been holding a job during the week.

    Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
    With that in mind, how many hardpressed east enders would actually have had the weekends off? Not many.
    If not completely having hitted bottom, the Victorian low classes were notorious for celebrating on the weekends by getting seriously hammered. Maybe not for the likes of Nichols and Chapman, but Eddowes and MJK did party when they could afford it. Plus almost everyone was an alcoholic in Victorian Whitechapel.

    Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
    Also of interest is that all the murders, from Smith to Kelly, occurred either in the first part or last part of the month, none in the middle. Not sure how or why that would be significant, just thought I'd mention it.
    Actually, I've noticed this myself and I was thinking that it might be related to
    - the killer getting payed in the end or in the beginning of the month
    - the simple fact that he started killing on the end of the month and his urges for another go growed accordingly.
    Noticeable is the longer gap after Chapman, which led to the Double Event, and the longer gap between the Double Event and MJK vs. the minimal waiting time between Nichols and Chapman. The latter can be understood as “newbie enthusiasm“ while it can be argued that after Chapman and the huge attention this crime got, he became more careful. There's also a huge gap between Emma Smith and Tabram, which can be explained by the fact that he hadn't started doing this solo yet.

    Leave a comment:

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